Monaco's succession issues

[seto]

No one forced albert to become a parent there is birth control for men he chose not to use it.

[libra65]

Originally Posted by iloveroyals

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

Quick question. Are Monagasques required to do service in the French military? I know a lot of countries have mandatory service although in the US it is all voluntary. Just curious.

[Ghislaine]

As far as I know (but I might be wrong) military service isn't compulsory for the Monagasques. However, should their fancy take them there, they are allowed to serve in the French army. Monaco itself has no army, but it has a lot of policemen and -women. (Most of them French, I believe).

And with regard to the topic of this thread, so far I haven't seen much commendable behavior from all three Casiraghis. From what I've seen and read I have them down as spoilt rich kids à la Paris Hilton & co. For that matter, they should get along well with Charlene. They are more her age than Albert is anyway. I think we'll just have to hope that Albert will live to a ripe old age as Monaco might really have succession issues when he dies... But governments have always managed to work around and survive bad rulers, so maybe there's some hope yet.

[iloveroyals]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

I totally agree with you.
Nevertheless, Monaco should not be compared to the UK. To rule Monaco you should be glamorous enough to attract glamorous people, it is a place of well living, and I think that Monaco residents would never care at all of Andrea going in Irak or not going. Monaco residents live a good life, and their ruler has to be in this frame. A good liver going to F1, Bal de la Rose, Bal de red Cross, and taking care about safety in Monte Carlo. Why he has to go in Irak? Did someone of the residents go in Afganistan, or Irak, or Indonesia after the Tsunami??
Prince Albert went to army, but out of this, during the last 20 years what was he doing? Going to his office and doing sports, that's it.
Andrea is a golden boy, he lives like a golden boy, like ALL the other boys of his "world". Lateron He will go to his Monaco office, spend some hours per day, and that's it. Prince Albert is young, normally speaking Andrea, IF he rules Monaco he wont rule it before his 50s - 60s !
And I sincerely think that we do not anything about Andrea, because he is doing nothing. He did not have his bac, he may just passd through a light "school" ann now he is partying, travelling and going around with Tatiana.

Fandesacs, I appreciate your take on this. I guess, the problem I have is that Princess Grace and Prince Rainier worked very hard at making Monaco not just a place full of glamour, for the rich, but a more socially aware, connected, respectable place. As he took the throne, Albert also announced that he was going to clean up Monaco from its laundering business or from the rumors of corruption, stressing transparency, really articulating giving Monaco a new, modern, moral image. I believe Monaco was accepted in the U.N fairly recently. Caroline took the mantle on her shoulders with her emphasis on international charity work, (not to mention her other passion, culture), making sure that her children would stay out of the media limelight so they could study, reflect and behave like other normal kids, preparing them for future responsibilities. Albert intensified his work with the environment. Caroline wants not only to be accepted and respected by the Gotha but also be taken seriously by heads of states, including President Bush to whom she wrote a semi-political letter (which unfortunately he didn't bother to answer.) This is the work of a caring, socially and politically intelligent generation and I am sure we can thank Rainier and Grace for their enlightened ideas. Now, given Caroline's own values, I feel bad that her first-born is not showing any understanding of the last two generations' ambition to give Monaco its legitimate place on the international scene. I find his lack of political awareness disturbing and not in keeping with our particularly complex modern times.

However, I remain optimistic. Perhaps it is just taking him a little longer than expected to grow up. And Pierre, on the other hand, seems to have a good head on his shoulders. And Charlotte, past a somewhat wild phase she is perfectly entitled to considering how hard she's been working so far, will certainly rally to her mother's expectations.

[brother]

iloveroyals I agree with everything you said and I wish i had your optimism and hope regarding andrea's potential to step in his uncle's footsteps one day. But somehow I don't think he will all of a sudden change his priorities and start focusing on preparing for his potential duties, it is too much catching up to do. I don't see that he's willing nor able to do such a job. If he wanted he would have proved it by now. When is he going to start school again , at 30 years old? Don't know why, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him ceding his seat to his brother.
heirs are trained since childhood, they receive a certain education, are thought about their future duties and responsibilities, even prince Albert admitted that his first official duty happened when he was six and that his parents, when he was a child, where often telling him about his future role.
We see how charles has raised his oldest son, same with the king of spain, etc. they started to prepare their successors very early. This may very well be andrea's problem, the fact that he didn't grow up like the others knowing that he has certain responsibilities and has to act accordingly. I really hope albert will have an heir rather sooner than later or legitimize his son who is still at a good age where he can learn and be prepared for such a role(however I don't see european gotha accepting a prince who's not white). I just don't see caro's kids doing the job, they are too disconnected from the real world, and take things too much for granted.

[iloveroyals]

Brother, I must admit that I wonder sometimes how he could hold his own in a conversation with his peers in the Gotha (by which I mean, not to treat him unfairly, not with heirs to the throne but say, the younger brothers (or sisters) of heirs to the throne), for he seems to have given up on his education four years ago. Again, this is pure speculation, for nobody seems to know whether he pursued any kind of studies or received any kind of degree. Frankly, I don't understand why Monegasques don't demand to know. If I were living in a country, with a potential heir to the throne, you bet your bippie I would want to know what qualifies a potential heir to his task, and I would think it natural to know what the children (young adults really) do. The whole notion of being a public figure or not strikes me as irrelevant. Time and again, you hear Monegasques say that the royal family is like family (their family) to them. Well, we usually know what the members of our family, even extended, to pursue the analogy, do in life. The idea that the media will hound them if people know where they study doesn't hold water since we know what other royal families' children do. It is partly what makes them exciting, that they prepare for a world moving toward more progress, more communication at light speed, just as other students do in western countries or from privileged backgrounds. They are the elite, whether they want it or not and as such the least they can do is keep up with the rest of us. Andrea's behavior strikes me as not only disrespectful toward what his family is trying to stand for in the 21st century, but also eerily old-fashioned, as if he were living in a different era, say circa 1920, 1930. I suppose there are psychological reasons for it and he may outgrow this phase, but as you said, there'll be a lot of catching up to do ! And parenthetically, I found the photo in Vogue (kissing Tatiana) not fun and cool, but in bad taste, doing his already tarnished image a disfavor and I resent magazines exploiting these young people. I guess I am old-fashioned too in my own way.

[maya35]

Personally, I don't have anything against Andrea. But, I definitely don't think he is a good heir for Albert. And the problem, in my opinion, is not even that we don't know if he is getting a degree or not. Today, university education often does not prove intelligence or hard work. Just let me remind you that George Bush has done a degree in Yale and went to grad school at Harvard. Even if Andrea would have a bac, his behaiviour certainly is not of the future head of state. I find it funny, how apparantly he is keen enough on his privacy to kick a photographer on the street, but considers it fine to go to high-profile events, pose on the red carpert or for Vogue photos. It seems that he uses all the advantages of being born into a royal family without actually having to do anything. So far he hasn't shown any interest in Monaco apart from glamorous parties. His charity trip could certainly give him some credibility, but, unfortunately, it seemed to be followed by long months of partying, instead of further involvement in the cause, which makes it seem a little bit fake now. And I think that the whole "I'm such a rebel" image works only for those who have something to rebel against. In the end of the day, Andrea & co come across as privileged rich brats, nothing more, degree or no degree (again, this is just my opinion, since I don't know either of them). Saying that, I quite like him. He is certainly amusing. He looks good. But I certainly hope he is not going to be the next Prince.
I hope I didn't offend anyone with that, this is just my point of view on the matter.

[Bahamagirl]

I have said this several times on another forum. I think that little Alexandre is going to be the best reared and best educated one of the Grimaldi male clan. I think that when he grows up his father is going to have to make some tough unpopular decisions when he sees the way his son is raised as apposed to how his nephews are raised.

I hope Albert will get married, but somehow I will believe that he will marry the day that he announces his engagement. It does not seem that he will ever get married. Alexander I hope grows up to to be the Barak Obama in France. Would'nt that be something. The first mixed race President of France. I am rooting for my handsome baby Alex.

[iloveroyals]

I have a great idea, that will combine both dynastic monarchy and democracry. When Albert has to be replaced by an heir, the Monegasque people will vote for who they think is the fittest to rule among all of the siblings' children (Caroline, Albert and Stephanie), legitimate or not. Let's bring a little competition in here !

[sashajones]

Handsome baby Alex will not be the the first mixed race President of France and certainly not the first mixed heir of Monaco. Andrea is a good choice and the only choice as Albert's heir, this is until Albert and Charlene gets married and produce their own children. JMO

[sirhon11234]

But it would be somewhat unfair if albert got married and had kids with charlene. And their children would be in line to the throne. While Alex and Jazmine are not. Those two might feel a bit inferior to their younger siblings.

[Zonk]

It may seem unfair...but is currently the law. Apparently it was the wish of Rainier (who apparently knew about Jazmin..maybe little Alexander as well) that the throne go to Caroline and Stephanie's legitimate children.

If Albert wanted to change the succession, what steps would he need to take?

[Lady Jennifer]

I would assume if he legally adopts one of his children that would be all he would need to do (like what happened to his grandmother, Charlotte).
Unless the laws of succession have completely changed since this happened.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer

I would assume if he legally adopts one of his children that would be all he would need to do (like what happened to his grandmother, Charlotte).
Unless the laws of succession have completely changed since this happened.

Yes, the succession law changed in 2002. Among the changes (Wikipedia):

The 2002 changes make the succession law more restrictive than previous versions. Under the old rules, the reigning Prince could adopt an heir who would succeed him if the Prince died without biological children. Prince Albert could have then adopted one of his nephews, or even someone unrelated, and made the person his heir. That option no longer exists. Now, if Prince Albert II fails to marry and father a legitimate heir, the crown will automatically pass to one of his sisters or one of their children--regardless of any illegitimate children he has fathered.

[Lady Jennifer]

Originally Posted by Warren

Yes, the succession law changed in 2002. Among the changes (Wikipedia):

The 2002 changes make the succession law more restrictive than previous versions. Under the old rules, the reigning Prince could adopt an heir who would succeed him if the Prince died without biological children. Prince Albert could have then adopted one of his nephews, or even someone unrelated, and made the person his heir. That option no longer exists. Now, if Prince Albert II fails to marry and father a legitimate heir, the crown will automatically pass to one of his sisters or one of their children--regardless of any illegitimate children he has fathered.

I stand corrected. But could the law be changed again? To allow Albert to adopt one of his children?

[maryellen1539]

Originally Posted by Lady Jennifer

I stand corrected. But could the law be changed again? To allow Albert to adopt one of his children?

Prince Albert can do anything he wants to. After all he is the Prince of Monaco.

[Avareenah]

Isn't he named on their birth certificates? If so, he wouldn't have to adopt them, surely?

I don't think it would be appropriate to name either as heirs, personally. It seems Albert has not been all that involved as a father with these children so they would have little understanding of his world and obviously can't be whisked away now to a new life - particularly the daughter who I believe is already a teenager.

The succession is not looking wonderful at this time, in my opinion. I can't see anything all that impressive about the Casiraghi offspring, except for their cheekbones. They don't appear to be being groomed for a prominent role in Monaco.

[Suonymona]

It took Rainier (who was much more respected and revered) nearly four years to get the Constitution amended, passed and (re)ratified by both the Monaco and French governments.
Thus it would not be a good thing for Albert to attempt. He hasn't the leverage.

Albert is named on Jazmin's birth certificate. In California (at the time of Jazmin's birth in 1992), a mother could put any name as father and it was accepted. Now it requires the named man's consent--something that Albert would not have given.

It is unknown if Albert is named on Eric Alexander's birth certificate as it has not been made publicly available. Nicole claims it is and that Albert signed a private affidavit attesting to its facts but no legal documents pertaining to Eric Alexander's birth have been released.

I honestly believe Albert will never make his current children legal heirs by any means. He truly intends to marry and have more children who will be the legal legitimate heirs. And if the marriage is childless or he never marries, he will die and the crown will pass to Caroline.

I suspect that in the next ten years, if Albert does not marry, Caroline will make sure Andrea is presented in a much better public light--to the point where people will be clamoring for him to be the heir to a sixty-year-old Albert.

There is one interesting caveat that people have missed regarding succession: the restriction to persons who are Monegasque citizens at the time of the demise of the crown (death of ruling Prince/ss).
As long as Jazmin is a American (USA) citizen and Eric Alexander is a French citizen, they (and their mothers) can make whatever claims they like. Albert only has to refuse them citizenship and they can never wear his crown.

[Bahamagirl]

First of all, did some tell these posters that Albert will marry Charlene? they seem so positive. Only time will tell. I seriously doubt it he does not treat her with that respect and you can see that there are no sparks in their relationship. A poster from Monoco has said on another board that there relationship is a farce for the public. He does not love her.

I do not see anything impressive about Andrea or his siblings, besides being good looking. That is why I hope Albert finds a suitable woman to become his wife and stop dating women who he is only prepared to keep as his mistresses.

[Bahamagirl]

I am also curious why some posters insist on calling Alexandre Eric. If his first name was Eric ,Prince Albert would have corrected Diane Sawyer. He just answered the question and he did not tell her excuse me his name is Eric. So I guess for all intents and purposes his name is Alexandre. You can confuse the posters by calling him Eric.