Monaco's succession issues

[CasiraghiTrio]

Jazmin's birth certificate (sadly, exploited in the press) says she is Jazmin Grace Grimaldi, true true, but I thought the Grimaldis were refusing to call her that. Why else are the newspapers calling her Jazmin Rotolo? If Grimaldi is her legal name (it is, whatever is on the birth certificate is legal, unless you change the social security card because of adoption or marriage or some other reason) why this reference in the newspapers as Jazmin Rotolo? Supposedly, Lacoste was quoted saying the family would not acknowledge Jazmin's use of the Grimaldi name, but Trustworthy says it's myth, so I'm curious as to what exactly the family's stance on it is? Has Lacoste said anything or referred to her in any specific way or is she just "the kid" or "the child"?

Originally Posted by Toledo

Caroline and her niece Jazmin Grace, what do they have in common? Guess...

In all this talk of what is right and what is not all I see is that the loser happens to be a person born first but born woman: Princess Caroline. Had Monaco's constitution been more up to date (as in we are in a whole different millenium) the older sibling should be the heir of the throne. If Monaco was like Sweden Albert would be the Grimaldi's Prince Carl so he can do with his life whatever he pleases.
Caroline is the one being short changed on this deal discussing Jazmin Grace's hypotetical rights over her little half brother. Caroline, like Jazmin Grace, is the older sibling (known to us so far, but I'm crossing my fingers and rolling my eyes now)

Even the posibility of legitimization of Jazmin Grace and Alexandre brings memories of the other thread discussing equality of sexes, the thread on Japan having a woman for Empress. If you think of it, the events in Monaco are somewhat similar to Japan's. The basics are a woman being considered less appropiate for a crown (real or hypotetical) than her younger male sibling or any other male relative like in the case of Japan.

Toledo, Jazmin is older than Alex, but as a boy, wouldn't Alex have the superior rights in the hypothetical? Albert is younger than Caroline, but ahead of her because he is male. The same situation for Rainier and Antoinette. It seems that the law of primogeniture is still intact in Monaco.

[Suonymona]

That would be something, if Albert were to try and retrofit the constitution so Caroline would take the throne as soon as the change was ratified. Her children would be come the "heir and spares" and Albert wouldn't have to worry about getting married to have legitimate children!

I think I've just solved the great dilemma!

Ann

[fandesacs2003]

Prince Albert has legally accepted that Jasmin AND Alexandre are both his children. Nevertheless they do not have any succession rights.

Do you think that it is unfair?

It is more justice that Andrea becomes the next Monaco's sovereigh, despite that Prince Albert has two children? And they are both young enough to be brought up and to receive all the necessary education for governing?

Your opinion would be very interesting

[hibou]

Originally Posted by fandesacs2003

Prince Albert has legally accepted that Jasmin AND Alexandre are both his children. Nevertheless they do not have any succession rights.

Do you think that it is unfair?

It is more justice that Andrea becomes the next Monaco's sovereigh, despite that Prince Albert has two children? And they are both young enough to be brought up and to receive all the necessary education for governing?

Your opinion would be very interesting

Rainier knew about Jazmin and chose to change the constitution so Rainier had strong feelings that in order to legitimize his dynasty in the eyes of the other royals the heir to the throne should be legitimate through marriage. That is not to say ALbert couldn't try to change it back but people so admired Rainier that I doubt he would stand a chance of doing it. JMO

[Hereditary Mapmaker]

I agree, hibou. In addition, with the (over)exposure in the media, the Casiraghi trio are tabloid superstars and, to a certain extent, the Mongasque people have claimed them as their own. That isn't something I think could happen with Jazmin because she is too old or with Alexander because of the ill will toward his mother.

Even without that, however, if you consider the charisma of these young people, there is not denying that while Jazmin is a pleasant, attractive, charming girl and Alexander is a cute toddler, neither of them at this point has the magnetic attractiveness and charisma of either Andrea or Charlotte. Both of them, at least in terms of physical beauty and photographic appeal, are superstars. Pierre can sometimes fall off the radar but he has the same quality more often than not.

I don't believe such traits can be developed, they are innate. In a way, I think reflects the same way with the current royals in Monaco. Albert may be the ruler but unless he is in the company of a woman or his nieces and nephews, he is rather bland and forgettable. Stefanie gets attention from her crazy actions and outfits, and she has some charisma, but in general pales in comparison to her older sister. The same can be said about Antoinette in comparison to Rainier. If everyone was on their best behavior, dressed as well as they could, etc., and there were no titles or links to royalty, I believe that more people would notice, be attracted to, be drawn toward Rainier, Grace, Caroline, Andrea, Charlotte, and Pierre.

After all is said and done, however, the laws in that country are definitive and because of that I do think it is fair.

Mapper

[rosana]

As far as i know there´s the religious problem,even the Casiraghis were not legitimate heirs until 1992 when they were recognized by the Pope.The heir to the monegasque throne has to be born in a catholic marriage.

[EmpressRouge]

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

[libra65]

Originally Posted by rosana

As far as i know there´s the religious problem,even the Casiraghis were not legitimate heirs until 1992 when they were recognized by the Pope.The heir to the monegasque throne has to be born in a catholic marriage.

This may be true. However, under the current constitution as it now reads, the trio are all legitimate heirs. I really don't think Albert has any intention of pulling the rug out from under them and changing the constitution so his illegitimate kids who weren't raised around palace life can take the throne. JMO.

[libra65]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

No he can't. The adoption clause was eliminated under the new constitution that Rainier put in to play in the early 90's.

[rosana]

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

[paca]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

It's not impossible for Jazmin or Alexandre to succeed to the throne. Albert could legally adopt them the same way Louis II adopted his illegitiment daughter, Charlotte (Rainier's mother).

adoption has been excluded since then. And Charlotte never ruled, she was only supposed to bear a son. If I remember correctly louis adopted her husband too so that the name could continue.

Originally Posted by rosana

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

strictly speaking he has Caro and Steph. Caro has the casiraghis

[britty1]

I think that steph and caro or the casiraghi siblings are more suited to the throne then jazmin or alexandre. i don't think it's unfair that they don't get in line for the throne but then i think that jazmin and alexandre should get something(money), which i don't think is a big problem.

[RubyPrincess168]

I don't think Jasmine and Alexandre should be allowed to inherit the throne. But they are entitled to a portion of Daddy's estate.

[fandesacs2003]

Originally Posted by rosana

Albert is not worried about his heir, he has the Casiraghis already. Besides the constitutional matters, i think he has no intention of adopting this kids or make them live close to him, i´m not sure that he loves them, that happens when a woman "forces" a man to become a parent.

You are right.
On the other side, especially when you are a Prince you should be more "carefull", birth control exists.....
I do not think the both women really "forced" him to become a prince, he just was irresponsible.

[iloveroyals]

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

[brother]

Originally Posted by iloveroyals

Somehow, I feel bad for the Grimaldi family having Andrea as the heir presumptive until (if) Prince Albert has (legitimate) children. I saw a headline saying that Prince Harry was going to go to Iraq. Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military. All the English princes have been in the military, whatever their rank in succession. Now, we have an almost 23 year-old young man who only has a trip with AMADE on his resume to qualify him to rule a country. He acts like an adolescent, we don't know whether he studies, what he studies, where he studies, even whether he passed his bac or not, everything is rumor and speculation, most of the time he looks unkempt, seems to utterly lack in self-discipline and an awareness that appearances matter when your may have to take a country's destiny into your hands. What is going on ? If I were a Monegasque, I'd be worried. Sure, he may be sowing his wild oats, but some official statement should come before his 23d birthday as to how he plans to serve his country or simply work at something for heaven's sake, instead of making silly faces with his girlfriend in Vogue. I know this post will upset his fans, and I'll be told that he can't be compared to the English princes, but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince ?
If I write this, it's because I care. I care about Monaco, I care about the Grimaldis.

Amen!!!! Excellent points!!

[kaffir]

I agree, but it's the people of Monaco that will suffer, not the Grimaldis. And what did Stefano do exactly except for race speedboats?

[Tosca]

Both Prince Rainier and Prince Albert were in the military.

,

but can we possibly compare him to his grandfather and uncle, or even father ? Whatever Stefano's faults might have been, he showed intiative (didn't follow up in his mother's or wife's footsteps for lack of something original to do), showed courage and discipline in sports, and was always the perfect gentleman in dress and manners as husband to a princess. Can Andrea possibly do the same as son of a Royal Princess and nephew of a ruling Prince

Stefano never served in the Italian army, as he'd showed a medical certificate compiled by a surely very obliging doctor, where it was stating that Stefano couldn't possibly serve in the military as he was affected by impotence - at that time serving in the army was mandatory in Italy, while it's been a volunteer army since 2005, if I'm correct -.

This story hit the headlines in Italy when Charlotte was born, so somebody hastened to tell the press it was just a matter of "temporary impotence". His disease might probably have lasted as long as the whole period of the military service, that's one year.

Apparently Stefano acted as a gentleman when married to Caroline; however there's an ex girlfriend of his, an actress named Dalila Di Lazzaro that thinks differently.
In an interview appeared in last week's DIVA mag, she talked about her romance with Stefano, that she'd met before he got involved with Caroline.
She states that she was astonished when she heard he got engaged with Monaco Princess, because she knew he was a very shy guy. She recalls that when he went to Orvieto, where she was acting in a film, each time he met her he was sort of trembling and his hands perspired. Of course he loaded her with gifts. Her gay friends called him "her step-sister", as they said he sort of looked like her.

One day Dalila wanted to read some mail from her fans, and coincidentally she picked up one letter coming from a girl of Como (Stefano's birthplace). The girl wrote: " If I were you, I wouldn't let him even have a cup of coffee with you! Such a lady as you are doesn't deserve such a jerk!
Each time he comes back to Como, he goes on bragging of how fantastic a lover he is, especially when he sleeps with you!"
After that Dalila broke up with him, and didn't want to see him anymore. When asked why she did - after all he was looking so good - she always replied:" He wasn't much of a lover, actually!"