Monaco's Crown


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I was asked a question that I need a asnwer to. Why dosent the Grimaldis own a state crown? Its obvious that they could afford one. They should "look" more like a monarchy
 
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My guess is that they don't have a crown, since they're only a Principality. However, I'm not 100% sure... I'll research this for you.
 
I was asked a question that I need a asnwer to. Why dosent the Grimaldis own a state crown? Its obvious that they could afford one. They should "look" more like a monarchy

The Grimaldis are not royalty (HRH) therefore they have no crown. They are HSH. Their princely title was granted to them; not one that was inherited. Of course they could always buy one to look royal, but that would have been pretty tacky. Grace did own one or two tiaras which are of course different from a crown. If you go look at the photos of Albert's coronation, you will see no crown.
 
The Grimaldis are not royalty (HRH) therefore they have no crown. They are HSH. Their princely title was granted to them; not one that was inherited. Of course they could always buy one to look royal, but that would have been pretty tacky. Grace did own one or two tiaras which are of course different from a crown. If you go look at the photos of Albert's coronation, you will see no crown.
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.
 
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.

I would suggest that we all turn to Monaco history as it is written for the answer.
 
So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!! JMO
 
Most European monarchies have crowns but none but the British actually use them and that is only rarely so I don't think Monaco really stands out for lack of one. There is a crown on the state flag and the coat-of-arms which is about as close as most other crowns are seen on the continent. No one but the British has a coronation any more (not even the Pope) so while I suppose the Grimaldis could come up with a princely crown of some sort it would probably come off as looking a little vainglorious since no one does coronations any more and most would not see a real "need" for one.
 
I would suggest that we all turn to Monaco history as it is written for the answer.
I was stating what history tells us about all those called Royal today and how they got there titles.
 
Interesting.. so no other family are crowned king/queen @ their coronation besides England? If this is case I understand y the Grimaldis dosent have one.

thanks,
Bones
 
There are other monarchies where the monarch is crowned as the british. In Asia, such as Butão are also crowned. Emperor Dom Pedro II of Brasil was also crowned (with a crown and a scepter). The king of Tonga was officially crowned last year with pomp and circumstances in a ceremony extremely expensive!
 
Interesting.. so no other family are crowned king/queen @ their coronation besides England? If this is case I understand y the Grimaldis dosent have one.

thanks,
Bones

Most do have crowns, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Spain etc. Historically you have to go a long way back. Remember that Kings were supposed to be decendant from God. Most of the royal houses of Europe are related to one another since royals could only marry other royals or titled nobility. It's only been recently that royals could marry commoners. Hense you get Crown Princess Victoria for example. Charles is technically Crown Prince Charles since he is next in line to the throne. Thus they are referred to as His Royal Highness or Her Royal Highness. The Grimaldi's were given the title of Prince not born with it. Check out Monaco's history and you will see why or research HRH as opposed to the Grimaldi's HSH and it's meaning. In it you will find out why there is technically no crown. It's not a question of whether to wear one or not it's a question of who is royal and who isn't.
 
I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.
 
So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!! JMO

Actually you are talking about two different things. A Head of State and members of Royalty are two different things, yes Albert happens to be both but generally speaking if you are a Head of State you do not bow or curtsy to members of royalty, or if you are wife to a Head of State you do do not curtsy. I imagine some might curtsy as Carla did to the Queen of England out of respect to her as a long serving monarch and as a guest of the Queen in her own home--a little respect to the Queen when there are nude pictures of you are on the front cover of the papers that day in her own country where she is receiving you--it probably went along way to show a little nod of respect to the Queen under those circumstances. Did Michele Obama curtsy? I know Prince Philip reprimanded Jackie when she curtsied to him when she was married to JFK, she did it again at her husbands funeral and he again repeated that she shouldn't curtsy, at that point she replied she was no longer the President's wife, but he was still in the White House and he probably saw it as disrespectful to her own husband and his own position as a Head of State and on that day his memory as Head of State. I imagine there is a protocol people follow but it probably is thought to show a disrespect to your own position as a Head of State or to your husband's position of Head of State and of course not everyone recognizes royalty in the world and that kind of class distinction. Monaco is a principality not a Kingdom as someone once called it? ;):rolleyes: Why would an actual crown be so important anyway, it certainly would make someone look very insecure and ridiculous to have to go to that extreme to think they had to walk around in a crown to garner respect in the world. If someone is that desperate to be recognized I'd just send them to Burger King.:ROFLMAO: Seriously who else actually wears a crown besides QE and on very few occasions? I suppose someone else has at one time but I can't think of anyone who does? Also I think crowns are passed down if you are having to go buy yourself a crown that certainly would say something about yourself!
 
I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.

What about Napolean?:whistling:
 
Well since we are talking about royalty it is only fitting that if you are being crowned at a ceremony as he was then a crown should be placed on the heard, it says nothing about the person, but it would have spoken volumes to his people that he cared enough to give them that ceremony as their prince. Just my veiw.
 
I understand that crowns are passed down- it have to start SOMEWHERE in time - u cannot tell me that the stuarts/tudors woke up one day and there was a crown in the mail! yea yea yea I read about the heads of state not having to bow or curtsy- that wasnt my question......A crown is a symbol of tradItions and even Burger KIng has a CROWN.
 
I understand that crowns are passed down- it have to start SOMEWHERE in time - u cannot tell me that the stuarts/tudors woke up one day and there was a crown in the mail! yea yea yea I read about the heads of state not having to bow or curtsy- that wasnt my question......A crown is a symbol of tradItions and even Burger KIng has a CROWN.

Well if it was symbol of tradition for them then they would have one, wouldn't they? I suppose if some member of Royalty felt they were not tooting their own horn enough they could go out and buy themselves one if that is what they needed to feel more important, If the Title, Throne and Palace among other things were just not enough :rolleyes: and they think a crown would do the trick, because in 2009 this is the only way they could earn some respect? I suppose they are welcome to do that, but I want to see the first royal person that has the nerve to do it!:ROFLMAO: Being that you are from the birthplace of America, this concerns you? ;)
 
So all the small countries of Europe have no crown? Luxembourg ( sp) Lieichenstein (sp) I believe that HRH-HSH-HIH-HM- all equals royalty when a head of state requires a courtesy as a bow or curtsy from his subjects---They should own a crown!!JMO

Well I'm very sorry then, I apologize for misinterpreting this?
 
I have read all the reply's and although most have some bearing of truth there is still the fact that HSH Prince Albert had a coronation, it is only my thought but does not that mean a crown should be placed on the head which is why the crown is important, as he or HSH is the head of the state and of it's people. Also it must be remembered that in all the years it is thought that royals are appointed by God, not even his holiness in Rome is decended from God but appointed by the spirit. Since the beginning every person started out as one man or one woman, the titles were given to all, Most royal families can trace their line back, it is this line which is the glue that represents the countries traditions.

But that is not a fact I'm afriad. Albert did not have a coronation nor has any Prince of Monaco ever had one because there is no crown. The ceremony might sometimes be called that but it is actually an enthronement. When Juan Carlos became King of Spain he simply took an oath, as do most other continental royals. The last Pope to be crowned was Paul VI. In Portugal, if I remember correctly, the monarch was not crowned because the crown belonged to God and no one else was allowed to wear it. In the Netherlands there is a crown but (if I am not mistaken) as the crown belongs to the people and not to the monarch it is not allowed to be worn.
 
well, I decided to do a little research. Here goes. Kings go back to the start of civilization but the current European royals date back to William the Conqueror. Some consider King Arthur to be the first "modern" king. At any rate the current situation of HRH and HSH still goes back to the title being granted to the Grimaldis not inherited. The confusion is that Albert inherieted the thrown like most HRH - the line of succession was set up by the first Prince of Monaco. A big chance to the succession issues of royals came about when Sweden eliminated the first male as being the heir and changed it to the first child male or female. Many in Monaco wanted Rainier to make that change. If he had Caroline would be in charge. hope this helps.
 
Hibou you said you hoped I would post some history links. You weren't specific what you were looking for. Here's the geneology links on the Grimaldis and the Windors. They're linked back to Adam and Eve their children being who I was referring to as
were originally born just men and woman like everyone else
Link 1 Link 2

This answers the questions where did the title Prince and Serene Highness come from. I'm still searching for the Crown story and I heard something like what Mom N Me posted. They lost much of their assests in 1789.

It was during the period of Spanish protectorate that Honoré II (1597-1662) began to use the title of prince. The first appearance is in 1612, the year of his accession, in private notarial acts, where the formula dating the document as having been drafted while X was lord of Monaco was changed to "lord and prince". In 1619, Honoré II changed the formulas in his edicts and on his seal, relinquishing his patronym, and calling himself "prince of Monaco". At about the same time he styled himself as such in his correspondance with the Spanish chancery, which reciprocated from 1633.
Under the terms of that treaty, France recognized the sovereignty of Monaco (and apparently gave the prince the treatment of Most Serene Higness, hitherto only called Highness in treaties: see for example the agreements signed with France on 27 Apr 1844
From Monaco
 
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I have been interested in Monaco for many years, and seem to remember reading somewhere that The Princely Family of Monaco HAD a crown.
:king3:
Back in the day when the French Revolution was going on and any Royal or Monarchy properties were being ransacked the Palace in Monaco did not escape these tragic events. :eek: The Crown and other important paintings and jewels and such that the Princely Family had not taken with them when they traveled were stolen.

When the Family were refurbishing the Palace, the decision was made NOT to replace the Crown - because it would not be the original one that was given to the first Prince of Monaco all those years ago. If it were to somehow ever turn up that would be one thing -- but it was probably taken apart and melted down many, many years ago. :cry:

That was the story of the Crown of Monaco as I heard it, anyway. True or not - you be the judge! :flowers:
 
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.

Yes, I read about that. The Grimadis was known as Lords and a young princes' uncle made sign his letters as Prince of Monaco! I think the older princes' title was prince of valetare ( sp) they should have added HRH--LOLOL OR MAYBE THEY DIDNT WANT TO BE GREEDY AND DECIDED ON HSH

Most do have crowns, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Spain etc. Historically you have to go a long way back. Remember that Kings were supposed to be decendant from God. Most of the royal houses of Europe are related to one another since royals could only marry other royals or titled nobility. It's only been recently that royals could marry commoners. Hense you get Crown Princess Victoria for example. Charles is technically Crown Prince Charles since he is next in line to the throne. Thus they are referred to as His Royal Highness or Her Royal Highness. The Grimaldi's were given the title of Prince not born with it. Check out Monaco's history and you will see why or research HRH as opposed to the Grimaldi's HSH and it's meaning. In it you will find out why there is technically no crown. It's not a question of whether to wear one or not it's a question of who is royal and who isn't.

In all cases of monarchies the titles of HM-HRH-HSH-HIH-etc must start somehwere from a common man taking control and giving himself and thus his family the above mentioned titles
 
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Hibou you said you hoped I would post some history links. You weren't specific what you were looking for. Here's the geneology links on the Grimaldis and the Windors. They're linked back to Adam and Eve their children being who I was referring to as Link 1 Link 2

This answers the questions where did the title Prince and Serene Highness come from. I'm still searching for the Crown story and I heard something like what Mom N Me posted. They lost much of their assests in 1789.

From Monaco
I thought Spain recognized the title
 
William the Conqueror? What about Charlemagne? If they were common people who seized thrones then they did this a long time before anyone in Monaco did.
I would like to see a family tree that actually proved their descendance from Adam and Eve.
I find this thread hilarious, and I can´t think of anything more hilarious than HSH Prince Albert ordering a crown from some jeweller. If the Principality comes to Princess Caroline then for the very first time there will be a HRH ruling Monaco as she now has this title by her third marriage and her youngest daughter is HRH so to continue this, it would have to be the youngest becoming head of State by bypassing her eldest half siblings.
 
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.

The title of Prince of Monaco was one of dozens of french, non royal, princely titles that existed in france, including Boisbelle-Henrichement, Dombes, Conde, Conti, Sedan and Raucourt. During the Bourbon monarchy they were more often known by their more senior title of Duc de Valentinois, which gave them the tabouret at court. The title prince was given to them by the king (or at least formally recognised by the King on behalf of the state of France since they assumed it some time earlier). The current family claim a number of french noble titles (none of which they have any real claim to since the Grimaldi family is only descended in the female line since Princess Caroline was married to -Prince- Pierre Marie Xavier Raphael Antoine Melchior Grimaldi/de Polignac and therefore the titles or at least most of them died out as Prince Louis/Ranier/Albert cannot alter the descent of a title that was given by an overlord of a foreign state)
 
Talking of titles, the Princes of Monaco are commonly referred to, and addressed as, "His Serene Highness" or "Her Serene Highness". In French it is "Son Altesse Sérénissime". There is a discrepancy here because "sérénissime" does not mean serene, but "most serene" (a superlative).

The word "serene" comes from Latin "serenus", an adjective meaning "cheerful, quiet, relaxed".

Serenus is also used as a first name, and in Ancient Rome it was used as a male third name, as in "Joe Bloggs the Serene", a fairly laid back character ......
There must, of course, be a female variant, and so we have "Serena".

The superlative of Serena is Serenissima, and so we come to Venice, that Most Serene of Republics - La Serenissima !

Finally, an 18th century German writer invented the character of Serenissimus, a rather silly princeling of a tiny principality!

I rest my case....
 
Kind hearts and coronets

Thanks hibou for all your clarifications with which I agree. I do not know that there is an official crown in Monaco but did see Princess Grace wear what looked like an official "coronet" once.And the "Crown" Renata alludes to in the coat of arms is actually a coronet.pls correct me if I am wrong
 
Thanks Jaya, I take your point.
The word "crown" comes from Latin "corona" which gave rise to French "la couronne", and words like "coronation", but there's also the diminutive form - Engl. "coronet" which was based on couronnette - a small crown.
 
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