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  #21  
Old 04-02-2009, 03:34 PM
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Hibou you said you hoped I would post some history links. You weren't specific what you were looking for. Here's the geneology links on the Grimaldis and the Windors. They're linked back to Adam and Eve their children being who I was referring to as
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were originally born just men and woman like everyone else
Link 1 Link 2

This answers the questions where did the title Prince and Serene Highness come from. I'm still searching for the Crown story and I heard something like what Mom N Me posted. They lost much of their assests in 1789.

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It was during the period of Spanish protectorate that Honoré II (1597-1662) began to use the title of prince. The first appearance is in 1612, the year of his accession, in private notarial acts, where the formula dating the document as having been drafted while X was lord of Monaco was changed to "lord and prince". In 1619, Honoré II changed the formulas in his edicts and on his seal, relinquishing his patronym, and calling himself "prince of Monaco". At about the same time he styled himself as such in his correspondance with the Spanish chancery, which reciprocated from 1633.
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Under the terms of that treaty, France recognized the sovereignty of Monaco (and apparently gave the prince the treatment of Most Serene Higness, hitherto only called Highness in treaties: see for example the agreements signed with France on 27 Apr 1844
From Monaco
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2009, 04:47 PM
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I have been interested in Monaco for many years, and seem to remember reading somewhere that The Princely Family of Monaco HAD a crown.

Back in the day when the French Revolution was going on and any Royal or Monarchy properties were being ransacked the Palace in Monaco did not escape these tragic events. The Crown and other important paintings and jewels and such that the Princely Family had not taken with them when they traveled were stolen.

When the Family were refurbishing the Palace, the decision was made NOT to replace the Crown - because it would not be the original one that was given to the first Prince of Monaco all those years ago. If it were to somehow ever turn up that would be one thing -- but it was probably taken apart and melted down many, many years ago.

That was the story of the Crown of Monaco as I heard it, anyway. True or not - you be the judge!
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  #23  
Old 04-23-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.
Yes, I read about that. The Grimadis was known as Lords and a young princes' uncle made sign his letters as Prince of Monaco! I think the older princes' title was prince of valetare ( sp) they should have added HRH--LOLOL OR MAYBE THEY DIDNT WANT TO BE GREEDY AND DECIDED ON HSH

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Originally Posted by hibou View Post
Most do have crowns, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Spain etc. Historically you have to go a long way back. Remember that Kings were supposed to be decendant from God. Most of the royal houses of Europe are related to one another since royals could only marry other royals or titled nobility. It's only been recently that royals could marry commoners. Hense you get Crown Princess Victoria for example. Charles is technically Crown Prince Charles since he is next in line to the throne. Thus they are referred to as His Royal Highness or Her Royal Highness. The Grimaldi's were given the title of Prince not born with it. Check out Monaco's history and you will see why or research HRH as opposed to the Grimaldi's HSH and it's meaning. In it you will find out why there is technically no crown. It's not a question of whether to wear one or not it's a question of who is royal and who isn't.
In all cases of monarchies the titles of HM-HRH-HSH-HIH-etc must start somehwere from a common man taking control and giving himself and thus his family the above mentioned titles
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  #24  
Old 04-23-2009, 11:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
Hibou you said you hoped I would post some history links. You weren't specific what you were looking for. Here's the geneology links on the Grimaldis and the Windors. They're linked back to Adam and Eve their children being who I was referring to as Link 1 Link 2

This answers the questions where did the title Prince and Serene Highness come from. I'm still searching for the Crown story and I heard something like what Mom N Me posted. They lost much of their assests in 1789.

From Monaco
I thought Spain recognized the title
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  #25  
Old 04-24-2009, 04:27 AM
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William the Conqueror? What about Charlemagne? If they were common people who seized thrones then they did this a long time before anyone in Monaco did.
I would like to see a family tree that actually proved their descendance from Adam and Eve.
I find this thread hilarious, and I can´t think of anything more hilarious than HSH Prince Albert ordering a crown from some jeweller. If the Principality comes to Princess Caroline then for the very first time there will be a HRH ruling Monaco as she now has this title by her third marriage and her youngest daughter is HRH so to continue this, it would have to be the youngest becoming head of State by bypassing her eldest half siblings.
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:48 PM
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Regarding terminology, at PA's accession, the term used is "avènement", meaning arrival, from the verb "avenir", to arrive. He received no crown, but a chain of office.

However, the coat of arms of Monaco shows a princely crown!
Palais de S.A.S. le Prince de Monaco - Armoiries de la Maison Grimaldi
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  #27  
Old 05-31-2009, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine View Post
If you want to get technical all Royals fit into the group you mentioned. They were originally born just men and woman like everyone else who appointed themselves rulers and/or won it through wars. Then they were able to inherit the Royal Highness Title and they are no different then the Princely Family of Monaco except their ancestors were greedier and more blood thirsty about everything including on what commoners should call them.
The title of Prince of Monaco was one of dozens of french, non royal, princely titles that existed in france, including Boisbelle-Henrichement, Dombes, Conde, Conti, Sedan and Raucourt. During the Bourbon monarchy they were more often known by their more senior title of Duc de Valentinois, which gave them the tabouret at court. The title prince was given to them by the king (or at least formally recognised by the King on behalf of the state of France since they assumed it some time earlier). The current family claim a number of french noble titles (none of which they have any real claim to since the Grimaldi family is only descended in the female line since Princess Caroline was married to -Prince- Pierre Marie Xavier Raphael Antoine Melchior Grimaldi/de Polignac and therefore the titles or at least most of them died out as Prince Louis/Ranier/Albert cannot alter the descent of a title that was given by an overlord of a foreign state)
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  #28  
Old 06-01-2009, 05:46 AM
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Talking of titles, the Princes of Monaco are commonly referred to, and addressed as, "His Serene Highness" or "Her Serene Highness". In French it is "Son Altesse Sérénissime". There is a discrepancy here because "sérénissime" does not mean serene, but "most serene" (a superlative).

The word "serene" comes from Latin "serenus", an adjective meaning "cheerful, quiet, relaxed".

Serenus is also used as a first name, and in Ancient Rome it was used as a male third name, as in "Joe Bloggs the Serene", a fairly laid back character ......
There must, of course, be a female variant, and so we have "Serena".

The superlative of Serena is Serenissima, and so we come to Venice, that Most Serene of Republics - La Serenissima !

Finally, an 18th century German writer invented the character of Serenissimus, a rather silly princeling of a tiny principality!

I rest my case....
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  #29  
Old 06-05-2009, 07:43 PM
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Kind hearts and coronets

Thanks hibou for all your clarifications with which I agree. I do not know that there is an official crown in Monaco but did see Princess Grace wear what looked like an official "coronet" once.And the "Crown" Renata alludes to in the coat of arms is actually a coronet.pls correct me if I am wrong
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  #30  
Old 06-29-2009, 05:18 AM
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Thanks Jaya, I take your point.
The word "crown" comes from Latin "corona" which gave rise to French "la couronne", and words like "coronation", but there's also the diminutive form - Engl. "coronet" which was based on couronnette - a small crown.
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  #31  
Old 07-07-2009, 07:13 AM
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If for some reason the Grimaldis decided to introduce a set of regalia/crown jewels it would be interesting to see what a modern crown might look like. I always wondered what would happen if the British crown jewels were destroyed to oblivion (goodness forbid) whether they would be remade in exactly the same design or a new set created!
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  #32  
Old 07-10-2009, 04:50 PM
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Luckily, Britain has two sets - the English one and the Scottish one :-)

Britain is the only country in Europe which still uses the Crown Jewels at a Coronation.
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  #33  
Old 07-29-2009, 11:46 AM
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Judy Balabine Quine

In the fantastic book authored by Judy Balabine Quine "The Bridesmaids" she says that Monaco does not have an official crown.That Grace told her bridesmaids so. Also she allows you to understand that the Grimaldis are like high patricians of the first rank and order and this the reason for the HSH. Pls correct if I am wrong.
This has always bewildered me like everyone else.
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