General Questions about the Princely Family of Monaco Part 1

[semisquare]

at different events have any of the HSH been snob by HRH? i ask this because of what i've read about the spanish wedding of cp and his wife. she refuse to cursty to HSH of liechtenstein. does that sort of thing happen a lot?

[suturegeisha]

Originally Posted by michelleq

Isn't that how Luxembourg's Royals became HRH? Didn't one of the Female Rulers marry a HRH? I can't recall which one.

Grand Duchess Charlotte married Prince Felix of Bourbon de Parma, which is why her children and their descendants have the right to use the qualification of His/Her Royal Highness.


See here.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by michelleq

Isn't that how Luxembourg's Royals became HRH? Didn't one of the Female Rulers marry a HRH? I can't recall which one.

The Luxembourgers were initially His or Her Grand Ducal Highness (HGDH).

In 1919 Grand Duchess Charlotte married His Royal Highness Prince Felix of Bourbon Parma. She thus became a Royal Highness by marriage, and their children were Royal Highnesses at birth.

So by marriage this branch of the House of Nassau raised themselves in rank to that of Royal Highness.

If Andrea, Pierre and Charlotte were removed from the Monaco succession, and Prince Albert II had no living heirs, the Monaco throne would eventually be inherited by HRH Princess Alexandra of Hanover. She would change her name to Grimaldi and become HRH Alexandra I, Sovereign Princess of Monaco.

In this manner Monaco would become a Royal House, just as Luxembourg did.

Another "what if": if HRH Princess Caroline of Hanover inherits, as Sovereign Princess of Monaco she could create, or decree, her three eldest children to equal style as herself, ie HRH, thus creating a Royal, as opposed to Princely, House of Monaco. I wonder if this is Albert's long-term plan?
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[norwegianne]

Originally Posted by suturegeisha

Grand Duchess Charlotte married Prince Felix of Bourbon de Parma, which is why her children and their descendants have the right to use the qualification of His/Her Royal Highness.


See here.

Interesting link. Thank you very much.

[Queenie]

considered less than a "royal" highness. A Prince is a Prince. Besiders Albert II has absolute power and a whole lot more money.

THe idea that a royal highness of Spain (as was posted in another post) who will inherit nothing (she won't get the throne and her family has no real wealth) wouldn't curtsey to a Sovreign Prince is pretty dumb.

Who actually decided Serene Highness were less than the other royals? Elizabeth II is a queen but Albert II has more power than she or Charles will ever have.

[Warren]

Originally Posted by Queenie

considered less than a "royal" highness. A Prince is a Prince.

The idea that a royal highness of Spain (as was posted in another post) wouldn't curtsey to a Sovereign Prince is pretty dumb.

Who actually decided Serene Highness were less than the other royals? Elizabeth II is a queen but Albert II has more power than she or Charles will ever have.

The styles of Royal and Princely Houses evolved over time; there were elements of one-upmanship and me-tooism, but the rules were largely laid down by the Holy Roman Emperor (who was for the latter part the Emperor of Austria and of the Habsburg Empire).

The patchwork quilt of old Europe had many different types of sovereign rulers: Emperors, Kings, Electors, Grand Dukes, Dukes, Princes and Counts.

The Emperor accorded different gradings of style: Imperial & Royal Highness, Royal Highness, Grand Ducal Highness, Highness (with gradings), Serene Highness and Illustrious Highness. Some German Princes who were not created by the Emperor had no style given to them at all.

During and after Napoleon the Electors declared themselves Kings, other Houses just upped their own styles and titles, and others were officially recognised by the Congress of Vienna.

Liechtenstein, a tiny principality of the Empire, has miraculously survived Napoleon and the fallout from both World Wars. Karl I of the family Liechtenstein was made a Prince of the Empire (Serene Highness) by the Emperor in 1608. This style was awarded to all members in 1623, and they are Serene Highnesses to this day.

As to Monaco, as was posted earlier the "Serene Highness" came from a Treaty with King Louis XV of France in 1641.

There is no connection between wealth and power and the style of the title, apart from the most basic ones: today a King is a Majesty, a member of a Royal family is a Royal Highness, and a member of the two remaining sovereign Princely Families is a Serene Highness.

And as we have seen in Denmark, the Queen can downgrade the style from Royal Highness to Highness at the stroke of a pen.

If it is true that a Spanish Royal didn't curtsey to the Sovereign Prince of Liechtenstein, this would be seen not only as a breach of etiquette, but as very bad manners.

As an aside, in 2002 the Emir of Bahrain declared that henceforth the Emirate would be a Kingdom, and he would be the King of Bahrain. As easy as that!
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[LadyMacAlpine]

Orginally posted by Warren

As to Monaco, as was posted earlier the "Serene Highness" came from a Treaty with Spain (then ruled by a Habsburg King).

It was my understanding from Albert II himself.

They were recognized by King Louis 15th of France in 1641 by a Treaty.

Was there another he didn't mention?

[monaco70s]

I've learned today something new on the Luxembourg Royals thanks

[Queenie]

I think Albert should declare his family royal and throw the whole system into a frenzy. He's got absolute power and a lot of money so it would be fun to see the constitutional royals have a cow.

If CHarles can marry his mistress and make her a royal highness then the nearly thousand years reign of the Grimaldis deserves the same.

[michelleq]

Originally Posted by Queenie

I think Albert should declare his family royal and throw the whole system into a frenzy. He's got absolute power and a lot of money so it would be fun to see the constitutional royals have a cow.

If CHarles can marry his mistress and make her a royal highness then the nearly thousand years reign of the Grimaldis deserves the same.

I agree wholeheartedly Queenie! But being a Camilla "Hater" from the 80's and 90's and thank God for His Mercy, I have come to admire Camilla for the way that she supports The Prince and not trying to out shine him. I am very happy for them and I do see why he loves her. But that is for another thread!

[MoonlightRhapsody]

Why would it be important for the Grimaldis to have "Royal" instead of "Serene"? Albert now has the same rank being a reigning monarch. It's like the difference between a "flight attendant" and "stewardess". Personally, I think it's a bit of a knit-pick to change titles for the heck of it. If it's not broken, don't fix it.

[Queenie]

Royal Highnesses and most others regard Serene Highnesses as "lesser princes" and always have-ergo the Infanta at her wedding curtseying to all those HRH's but not when she got to the reigning prince of lichtenstein (spelling?) because reigning or not he was "just a Serene" as far as she was concerned-bad protocol and worse manners.

I posted earlier how Queen Mary hated being a Serene Highness as Princess of Teck because in the UK Serene Highness were not entitled to bows or curtseies like HRH's.

Albert II has absolute power (one of the last in the world) and billions and as far as HRH's are concerned he is still a "lesser"`prince that's why so much was made of his sister becoming a royal highness - as such she outranked him even though he was at the time Crown Prince/Heir Apparent.

[lashinka2002]

Originally Posted by Queenie

I think Albert should declare his family royal and throw the whole system into a frenzy. He's got absolute power and a lot of money so it would be fun to see the constitutional royals have a cow.

If CHarles can marry his mistress and make her a royal highness then the nearly thousand years reign of the Grimaldis deserves the same.

Ha ha ha :p :) I wonder if he actually could?
Now that would be something to see!

[Warren]

Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine

Orginally posted by Warren It was my understanding from Albert II himself. Was there another he didn't mention?

My apologies Lady MacAlpine. My misquote.
I will amend the post.

W

[Warren]

A Reigning Prince will always outrank a non-reigning Prince or Princess, Royal or not. A Reigning Prince is a Monarch, it doesn't matter whether Imperial, Royal or Serene.

It must have been interesting in the German and Austrian Empires where there where all sorts of reigning sovereigns, from Emperors down to Counts, with different styles of Highness, plus the mediatised families, and the general run of the mill princes and dukes. But everyone would have known exactly where they stood in the pecking order and no doubt would have guarded their "rights" jealously.

And the rules were strictly applied. The Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Habsburg Empire, was constantly humiliated at the Austrian Court where his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, later Duchess of Hohenberg, (both assassinated at Sarajevo in 1914) was not accorded equal status with her husband, and could not sit with him at dinners and functions.

Franz Ferdinand had fond memories of his visits to Britain, where King Edward VII made a point of treating Sophie as the social equal of her husband.
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[Queenie]

I guess the Infanta was just showing bad taste.

So a Reigning Prince outranks any other Prince-great. You should give history and ettiquette lessons to the present day Monarchs who look down on the Grimaldis.

But a I do think it will be a snowy day in Southwestern Hell when you see Princess Anne or any other Royal Princess curtsey to Prince Albert II.

[monaco70s]

Originally Posted by Queenie

But a I do think it will be a snowy day in Southwestern Hell when you see Princess Anne or any other Royal Princess curtsey to Prince Albert II.

That certainly will be something to see... lol

[LadyMacAlpine]

Yes, Monaco70 it would

[monaco70s]

You know I find it kind of weird...it has been said for ages that the Windsors look down at the Grimaldis, but Princess Anne and Grace were very good friends, in fact she visited Monaco in 1972 and even invited Rainier & Grace to her wedding. The Duke Of Edimburgh was a frequent Monaco visitor like Charles in the 60s-70s. Grace & Albert were at Charles & Di's wedding. There are even pictures of Grace and Rainier with Princess Margaret or the Windsors at Ascot & Wimbledon.

I admit there isn't nowadays a very close relationship amongst them like other houses have for example, the Scandinavian houses are seen together a lot of times.

[Queenie]

The Scadanavians are the most unpretentious of the present day Monarchies most of them a very down to earth. THe Brits and the Spanairds are more formal and seem more imnpressed with what kind of highness they are.