General Questions about the Princely Family of Monaco Part 1

[EmpressRouge]

A Reigning Prince will always outrank a non-reigning Prince or Princess, Royal or not. A Reigning Prince is a Monarch, it doesn't matter whether Imperial, Royal or Serene.

It must have been interesting in the German and Austrian Empires where there where all sorts of reigning sovereigns, from Emperors down to Counts, with different styles of Highness, plus the mediatised families, and the general run of the mill princes and dukes. But everyone would have known exactly where they stood in the pecking order and no doubt would have guarded their "rights" jealously.

And the rules were strictly applied. The Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Habsburg Empire, was constantly humiliated at the Austrian Court where his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, later Duchess of Hohenberg, (both assassinated at Sarajevo in 1914) was not accorded equal status with her husband, and could not sit with him at dinners and functions.

Franz Ferdinand had fond memories of his visits to Britain, where King Edward VII made a point of treating Sophie as the social equal of her husband.
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That's true. Queen Victoria's second son Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh outranked his elder brother the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) when he became the reigning Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha after the death of their uncle Ernest II (Edward renounced his right to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha dukedom as he was to be King of England).

On a side note, The Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Edinburgh, née Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, was pleased because she now officially outranked the Princess of Wales (Alexandra of Denmark). Before she and her father (Tsar Alexander II) had insisted that she be given precedence over Alexandra becz Marie was born a HIH (which was considered higher than a HRH), but Queen Victoria had refused.

 

[Suonymona]

Do Stephanie courtesy to brother? Caroline would not as Heir yes?

 

[Queenie]

I would Caroline would just like Charles still bows to

EII even though he is heir. I think the issue is that she is a royal highness and he's not but everyone says as a Reigning Prince he trumps that.

Does anyone know for sure if she would curtsey to her brother?

 

[semisquare]

its very sad to state this but just to show u how classes make a difference even when your dead. Archduke Franz Ferdinand & his wife sophie were on public display before their funerals. archduek's coffin was 7 or 12" higher than his sophie. because of her social status

 

[Alisa]

I didn't know that the reigning Monarch can "upgrade" their status? Can you or anyone else confirm with an example? Alisa, I'm not disputing you at all; I just never knew that. I thought that another Monarch had to do so.

I have no examples, but I am fairly certain that if Hans-Adam or Albert wanted to "upgrade" his family to "royal highness" they could do so, unless there is a treaty with France forbidding it (which I have never heard off).

 

[Warren]

Grand Titles

On a side note, The Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Edinburgh, née Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, was pleased because she now officially outranked the Princess of Wales (Alexandra of Denmark). Before she and her father (Tsar Alexander II) had insisted that she be given precedence over Alexandra becz Marie was born a HIH (which was considered higher than a HRH), but Queen Victoria had refused.

Oh yes, there was much drama over the new Duchess of Edinburgh's status. And of course Queen Victoria would not be dictated to by a mere Tsar of Russia. After much argument, it was agreed that Maria would be styled "Her Royal and Imperial Highness The Duchess of Edinburgh, (Grand Duchess of Russia)". Apart from Maria and her father, I don't think anyone else was impressed by this example of Russian grandiosity.

There was no chance of Maria being accorded British precedence over Princess Alexandra; the official Order of Precedence lists the Prince and Princess of Wales immediately after the Monarch (and his/her spouse).

Here is a pic of Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, Duchess of Edinburgh, Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Needless to say, a very domineering mother.
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[Warren]

Due Deference

EII even though he is heir. I think the issue is that she is a royal highness and he's not but everyone says as a Reigning Prince he trumps that. Does anyone know for sure if she would curtsey to her brother?

Albert II is the reigning Sovereign of Monaco. Caroline would curtsey to him as a mark of respect and deference. But how often she would do this in private we will probably never know.
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[EmpressRouge]

In the middle ages, only the Holy Roman Emperor could be titled majesty; all the other kings were simply royal highnesses. During the Renaissance, Francis I of France decided to start titling himself "majesty," and the other European monarchs followed suit

 

[michelleq]

Could Albert and Hans-Adam declare themselves HRH? With the new Constitution of Monaco, isn't Monaco separated from France? I asked on the Iberian Board if HM Juan Carlos could declare PA a HRH. Does anyone know of anyone granting such Titles to HSH's? I do know that a German Prince had granted HRH Princess Margarita of Romania's husband a HSH Princely Title (I think that is being disputed some area's).

 

[Warren]

Hohenzollern

I do know that a German Prince had granted HRH Princess Margarita of Romania's husband a HSH Princely Title (I think that is being disputed some area's).

Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, Head of the Princely House of Hohenzollern, created Radu Duda, the husband of Princess Margarita, HSH Prince of Hohenzollern-Veringen in 1999.

The Romanian Royal Family descends from the Princes of Hohenzollern (-Sigmaringen).
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[michelleq]

Would the future wife of Prince Albert be Catholic, since he is the head of the Church of Monaco? Or could she be protestant?

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

Would the future wife of Prince Albert be Catholic, since he is the head of the Church of Monaco? Or could she be protestant?

He isn't head of the Church. She should be Catholic or convert.

 

[leahteresa]

What does the Catholic Church say about children out of wedlock? This is a sincere question, I mean, if divorce and sex before marriage are a sin then where does children out of wedlock fall? Could Albert be refused communion....?

 

[Saba]

If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc.

You got that right! Whenever I see them kneeling and in a chapel, it seems so out of character and rather an odd.

 

[michelleq]

"Originally Posted by kelly9480
If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc."

We won't even discuss the morality of the Roman Catholic Church with all of the lawsuits they have against it worldwide; and that's all I'm going to say about that subject matter. Everyone sins. Because one wears a collar does not absolves him from sin (pardon the pun).

My question was as to whether the spouse of Prince Albert had to be Catholic. That's all!

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

What does the Catholic Church say about children out of wedlock? This is a sincere question, I mean, if divorce and sex before marriage are a sin then where does children out of wedlock fall? Could Albert be refused communion....?

I have attended Catholic Mass's since I was a teenager even though I wasn't officially accepted into the Catholic Church until this year. I am allowed to take communion haveing been accepted into the Church. I have a child that is seen as illegitamate.

 

[Tosca]

"Originally Posted by kelly9480
If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc."

We won't even discuss the morality of the Roman Catholic Church with all of the lawsuits they have against it worldwide; and that's all I'm going to say about that subject matter. Everyone sins. Because one wears a collar does not absolves him from sin (pardon the pun).

My question was as to whether the spouse of Prince Albert had to be Catholic. That's all!

As far as I know Catholicism is Monaco's state religion, so the spouse of Prince Albert has to be Catholic, according to the costitution.

 

[Tosca]

I have attended Catholic Mass's since I was a teenager even though I wasn't officially accepted into the Catholic Church until this year. I am allowed to take communion haveing been accepted into the Church. I have a child that is seen as illegitamate.

I think God is far too inteligent to attach any importance to our differences. Right?

 

[Reina]

Right! It is pretty sad that the "Church" has all these rules and traditions when it does not align with what God says! In most non-denominational churches nowadays, children who are born out of wedlock are not looked down upon and that goes for the parents too. Of course we encourage all to live chaste and wait until marriage, but when ppl make mistakes we encourage them repent, let God love and heal, and go on to do what He has called you to do! Because "we all sin and fall short of the glory of the Lord!"

 

[monica17]

Sticking to the original question by Australian, I don't know about the present. But in Princess Grace's biographies, it was said that the family heard mass every week at the palace chapel, and PA II was the altar boy. They also had mass during birthdays.

Caroline talks about her Catholicism. I guess going to mass goes with it. But I have no idea about the rest of the family.

_________
Monica17

 

[leahteresa]

I have attended Catholic Mass's since I was a teenager even though I wasn't officially accepted into the Catholic Church until this year. I am allowed to take communion haveing been accepted into the Church. I have a child that is seen as illegitamate.

Thanks for answering my question, I really did not know how that worked.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

Thanks for answering my question, I really did not know how that worked.

You are welcome any time.

 

[LadyMacAlpine]

I think God is far too inteligent to attach any importance to our differences. Right?

I'm not sure I fully understand that sorry.

 

[michelleq]

Right! It is pretty sad that the "Church" has all these rules and traditions when it does not align with what God says! In most non-denominational churches nowadays, children who are born out of wedlock are not looked down upon and that goes for the parents too. Of course we encourage all to live chaste and wait until marriage, but when ppl make mistakes we encourage them repent, let God love and heal, and go on to do what He has called you to do! Because "we all sin and fall short of the glory of the Lord!"

I am not Catholic; I attend a Non-Denominational Church. My question is this; isn't there a sect (Can't think of a better word, please pardon) of Catholics that are more Charismatic? Does some of the Belgium Royals attend this type of Catholic Church even though they definitely support the Pope?

 

[Emily]

I believe you are referring to a sect called Opus Dei. As I understand it Princess Astrid of Belgium and some other members are members. Can anyone else clarify? I know I read this in a post somewhere....

 

[Emily]

....sorry, I meant to write and some other BRF are members...

 

[michelleq]

I believe you are referring to a sect called Opus Dei. As I understand it Princess Astrid of Belgium and some other members are members. Can anyone else clarify? I know I read this in a post somewhere....

Thanks Emily! I found an "Unofficial Reference" on the Web. Here is the link.

http://www.mond.at/opus.dei/opus.dei.uo.faq.html

 

[Tosca]

I'm not sure I fully understand that sorry.

Reina understood it very well. Anyway by saying that I meant that your daugther may be considered as illegitimate by the Church - I'd better say its representatives -, but God has no illegitimate children.

Ciao!

 

[Tosca]

Source: "FAMIGLIA CRISTIANA" (Catholic mag ) #20 July 17th 2005.

ANNUlMENT: The sentence by which an ecclesiastic tribunal (Sacra Romana Rota ) declares that a marriage has never taken place, since this has been lacking in its most important requirements.

All common-law spouses or those who married in a civil ceremony have to marry in the Church in order to be allowed to take the sacraments.

Divorced people that remarried in a civil ceremony are not admitted to either take the communion, or be godparents or witnesses at weddings. They also cannot be absolved in a confession.

Well hopefully I made it clear enough. I recall that in 1984 when Caro and Stefano got married, that magazine called him a "concubine" and her a "public sinner".

Grace, correggimi se sbaglio, visto che il tuo inglese è migliore del mio, perché quella ( immagino tu intuisca di chi sto parlando ) non capisce una beneamata "mazza", nonostante tutta la "cacca" che si da, e crea solo dei casini . Bacioni.

 

[Hannelore]

I believe you are referring to a sect called Opus Dei. As I understand it Princess Astrid of Belgium and some other members are members. Can anyone else clarify? I know I read this in a post somewhere....

Belgian royals are roman catholic and sincere in their belief (not just going to church on their marriage). Astrid has been in touch with the charismatic movement, but she nor any other member of the BRF are part of Opus Dei or any other group/sect. Those are rumours spread by a few journalists who have always tried to shed a negative light on the Belgian monarchy.

The belgian royals are sincere in their faith, and certainly consider it as something personal. They have respect for people without a religion, or who belief something else then they do.