General Questions about the Princely Family of Monaco Part 1

[EmpressRouge]

Originally Posted by Warren

A Reigning Prince will always outrank a non-reigning Prince or Princess, Royal or not. A Reigning Prince is a Monarch, it doesn't matter whether Imperial, Royal or Serene.

It must have been interesting in the German and Austrian Empires where there where all sorts of reigning sovereigns, from Emperors down to Counts, with different styles of Highness, plus the mediatised families, and the general run of the mill princes and dukes. But everyone would have known exactly where they stood in the pecking order and no doubt would have guarded their "rights" jealously.

And the rules were strictly applied. The Archduke Franz Ferdinand, heir to the Habsburg Empire, was constantly humiliated at the Austrian Court where his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, later Duchess of Hohenberg, (both assassinated at Sarajevo in 1914) was not accorded equal status with her husband, and could not sit with him at dinners and functions.

Franz Ferdinand had fond memories of his visits to Britain, where King Edward VII made a point of treating Sophie as the social equal of her husband.
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That's true. Queen Victoria's second son Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh outranked his elder brother the Prince of Wales (later Edward VII) when he became the reigning Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha after the death of their uncle Ernest II (Edward renounced his right to the Saxe-Coburg-Gotha dukedom as he was to be King of England).

On a side note, The Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Edinburgh, née Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, was pleased because she now officially outranked the Princess of Wales (Alexandra of Denmark). Before she and her father (Tsar Alexander II) had insisted that she be given precedence over Alexandra becz Marie was born a HIH (which was considered higher than a HRH), but Queen Victoria had refused.

[Suonymona]

Do Stephanie courtesy to brother? Caroline would not as Heir yes?

[Queenie]

EII even though he is heir. I think the issue is that she is a royal highness and he's not but everyone says as a Reigning Prince he trumps that.

Does anyone know for sure if she would curtsey to her brother?

[semisquare]

its very sad to state this but just to show u how classes make a difference even when your dead. Archduke Franz Ferdinand & his wife sophie were on public display before their funerals. archduek's coffin was 7 or 12" higher than his sophie. because of her social status

[Alisa]

Originally Posted by michelleq

I didn't know that the reigning Monarch can "upgrade" their status? Can you or anyone else confirm with an example? Alisa, I'm not disputing you at all; I just never knew that. I thought that another Monarch had to do so.

I have no examples, but I am fairly certain that if Hans-Adam or Albert wanted to "upgrade" his family to "royal highness" they could do so, unless there is a treaty with France forbidding it (which I have never heard off).

[Warren]

Originally Posted by EmpressRouge

On a side note, The Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha/Edinburgh, née Her Imperial Highness Grand Duchess Marie Alexandrovna of Russia, was pleased because she now officially outranked the Princess of Wales (Alexandra of Denmark). Before she and her father (Tsar Alexander II) had insisted that she be given precedence over Alexandra becz Marie was born a HIH (which was considered higher than a HRH), but Queen Victoria had refused.

Oh yes, there was much drama over the new Duchess of Edinburgh's status. And of course Queen Victoria would not be dictated to by a mere Tsar of Russia. After much argument, it was agreed that Maria would be styled "Her Royal and Imperial Highness The Duchess of Edinburgh, (Grand Duchess of Russia)". Apart from Maria and her father, I don't think anyone else was impressed by this example of Russian grandiosity.

There was no chance of Maria being accorded British precedence over Princess Alexandra; the official Order of Precedence lists the Prince and Princess of Wales immediately after the Monarch (and his/her spouse).

Here is a pic of Grand Duchess Maria of Russia, Duchess of Edinburgh, Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. Needless to say, a very domineering mother.
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[Warren]

Originally Posted by Queenie

EII even though he is heir. I think the issue is that she is a royal highness and he's not but everyone says as a Reigning Prince he trumps that. Does anyone know for sure if she would curtsey to her brother?

Albert II is the reigning Sovereign of Monaco. Caroline would curtsey to him as a mark of respect and deference. But how often she would do this in private we will probably never know.
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[EmpressRouge]

In the middle ages, only the Holy Roman Emperor could be titled majesty; all the other kings were simply royal highnesses. During the Renaissance, Francis I of France decided to start titling himself "majesty," and the other European monarchs followed suit

[michelleq]

Could Albert and Hans-Adam declare themselves HRH? With the new Constitution of Monaco, isn't Monaco separated from France? I asked on the Iberian Board if HM Juan Carlos could declare PA a HRH. Does anyone know of anyone granting such Titles to HSH's? I do know that a German Prince had granted HRH Princess Margarita of Romania's husband a HSH Princely Title (I think that is being disputed some area's).

[Warren]

Originally Posted by michelleq

I do know that a German Prince had granted HRH Princess Margarita of Romania's husband a HSH Princely Title (I think that is being disputed some area's).

Prince Friedrich Wilhelm, Head of the Princely House of Hohenzollern, created Radu Duda, the husband of Princess Margarita, HSH Prince of Hohenzollern-Veringen in 1999.

The Romanian Royal Family descends from the Princes of Hohenzollern (-Sigmaringen).
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[michelleq]

Would the future wife of Prince Albert be Catholic, since he is the head of the Church of Monaco? Or could she be protestant?

[LadyMacAlpine]

Originally Posted by michelleq

Would the future wife of Prince Albert be Catholic, since he is the head of the Church of Monaco? Or could she be protestant?

He isn't head of the Church. She should be Catholic or convert.

[leahteresa]

What does the Catholic Church say about children out of wedlock? This is a sincere question, I mean, if divorce and sex before marriage are a sin then where does children out of wedlock fall? Could Albert be refused communion....?

[Saba]

Originally Posted by kelly9480

If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc.

You got that right! Whenever I see them kneeling and in a chapel, it seems so out of character and rather an odd.

[michelleq]

"Originally Posted by kelly9480
If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc."

We won't even discuss the morality of the Roman Catholic Church with all of the lawsuits they have against it worldwide; and that's all I'm going to say about that subject matter. Everyone sins. Because one wears a collar does not absolves him from sin (pardon the pun).

My question was as to whether the spouse of Prince Albert had to be Catholic. That's all!

[LadyMacAlpine]

Originally Posted by leahteresa

What does the Catholic Church say about children out of wedlock? This is a sincere question, I mean, if divorce and sex before marriage are a sin then where does children out of wedlock fall? Could Albert be refused communion....?

I have attended Catholic Mass's since I was a teenager even though I wasn't officially accepted into the Catholic Church until this year. I am allowed to take communion haveing been accepted into the Church. I have a child that is seen as illegitamate.

[Tosca]

Originally Posted by michelleq

"Originally Posted by kelly9480
If they do, they don't seem to be paying much attention to what's been said there. I can't think of another nominally Roman Catholic family whose lives go against the Vatican's teachings on marriage, divorce, out of wedlock children, adultery, etc."

We won't even discuss the morality of the Roman Catholic Church with all of the lawsuits they have against it worldwide; and that's all I'm going to say about that subject matter. Everyone sins. Because one wears a collar does not absolves him from sin (pardon the pun).

My question was as to whether the spouse of Prince Albert had to be Catholic. That's all!

As far as I know Catholicism is Monaco's state religion, so the spouse of Prince Albert has to be Catholic, according to the costitution.

[Tosca]

Originally Posted by LadyMacAlpine

I have attended Catholic Mass's since I was a teenager even though I wasn't officially accepted into the Catholic Church until this year. I am allowed to take communion haveing been accepted into the Church. I have a child that is seen as illegitamate.

I think God is far too inteligent to attach any importance to our differences. Right?

[Reina]

Right! It is pretty sad that the "Church" has all these rules and traditions when it does not align with what God says! In most non-denominational churches nowadays, children who are born out of wedlock are not looked down upon and that goes for the parents too. Of course we encourage all to live chaste and wait until marriage, but when ppl make mistakes we encourage them repent, let God love and heal, and go on to do what He has called you to do! Because "we all sin and fall short of the glory of the Lord!"

[monica17]

Sticking to the original question by Australian, I don't know about the present. But in Princess Grace's biographies, it was said that the family heard mass every week at the palace chapel, and PA II was the altar boy. They also had mass during birthdays.

Caroline talks about her Catholicism. I guess going to mass goes with it. But I have no idea about the rest of the family.

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Monica17