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  #1301  
Old 10-14-2012, 07:36 AM
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what a scary story..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv View Post
I'm not going to question the state of Prince Friso, and the cases are
not identical.. However right now we're having a 'headlines case' in Denmark, about Carina, a 20- year old girl who was terribly injured in a traffic accident and considered brain dead (MR scan). Because of her state, her parents were asked to consider that her vital organs could
be donated to patients in need, and they reluctantly agreed considering the prognosis, but also experiencing a 'mild pressure' from the doctor in charge.

The procedures for organ donation were initiated, but what happened
was that Carina continued to breathe without life support and eventually woke up!
She is now in rehab, hoping to be able to finish her graduating exams.

The public service DR TV ran a documentary on Carinas case the other day after ignoring pleas from the hospital not to.

Carinas parents are livid, intending to sue the doctor in charge of their daugthers case.

The relevant doctor has apparently been advised to go below the radar for a while

Organ donors are leaving the registry in bundles...

I don't know whether we've got the whole truth and nothing .. however it's stories like Carinas' which keep people hoping in those awful comatose cases.

viv
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  #1302  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:00 AM
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.. well, I would take it with a grain of salt ... it sounds too 'round'.

In my experience doctors are very carefull with what they say. They probably suggested to donate organs with 'if's' and 'when's' ... - but for sure news have reshaped the story to make it more 'newswhile' ...


Much more people die because there are NO organs for transplantation, then people die because they are organ donors!!!

It's like: not using an ambulance because once in a while there are accidents involving ambulance cars.
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  #1303  
Old 10-14-2012, 09:46 AM
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Exactly Nice Nofret, not to forget statiscally people remember under distress at most 40% of what their doctor told them.
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  #1304  
Old 10-14-2012, 11:34 PM
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I am happy for Carina and her family. But what is important in comparing the two cases is how long Carina was in a coma and showing no brain function?

For Prince Friso, it is almost 8 months since his accident and subsequent coma.
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  #1305  
Old 10-15-2012, 02:27 AM
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As I stated in my post: I'm not going to question the state of Prince Friso; the cases are not identical!
This is about doctors making misjudgements! The director of the hospital in question has admitted to misjudgement! This happened within 8-10 days of the trauma!
Relatives are clinging to straws in cases like this, and I'm also sure that they have 'selective hearing', as someone suggested!
I'm also trying to point out that despite Prince Frisos condition, which appears to be irreversible, his family is not ready to let go! Maybe because of stories similar to that of Carina. It doesn't matter whether these cases compare or not medically speaking, what matters is that these 'happy- endings-cases' fuel a shimmer of hope for the relatives.
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  #1306  
Old 10-15-2012, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viv View Post
As I stated in my post: I'm not going to question the state of Prince Friso; the cases are not identical!
This is about doctors making misjudgements! The director of the hospital in question has admitted to misjudgement! This happened within 8-10 days of the trauma!
Relatives are clinging to straws in cases like this, and I'm also sure that they have 'selective hearing', as someone suggested!
I'm also trying to point out that despite Prince Frisos condition, which appears to be irreversible, his family is not ready to let go! Maybe because of stories similar to that of Carina. It doesn't matter whether these cases compare or not medically speaking, what matters is that these 'happy- endings-cases' fuel a shimmer of hope for the relatives.
I agree, but I also think the Dutch Royal Family doesn't have much choice at the moment.
Euthanasia is out of the question in England, because it is not allowed there.
Euthanasia in the Netherlands is possible but I think it will lead to a lot of controversy. There are a lot of people in the Netherlands who have strong religious beliefs and who are strong supporters of the Monarchy. The Royal Family might risk to lose that support if they decide to end Prince Friso's life.
The Royal Family can't decide to turn off life support because Friso is probably not on life support.
The only option they have at the moment is to wait until his body gives up...
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  #1307  
Old 10-15-2012, 08:00 AM
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I would not wish this on anyone.

I pray for peace of heart for the Dutch RF, and for Friso as well.
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  #1308  
Old 10-19-2012, 07:33 PM
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Ermittlungen gegen Prinz Frisos Freund eingestellt Investigation against Frisos friend closed ... just saw this news. Obviously the Public Prosecutors Office of Feldkirch concluded that both men together were responsible for the incident and that therefore there was no reason for a prosecution.
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  #1309  
Old 10-20-2012, 01:32 PM
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A reasonable conclusion.
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  #1310  
Old 10-20-2012, 10:26 PM
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I just read in the French paper "Point de Vue", dated the week of Oct. 3 to Oct.9, 2012, no. 3350, on the front cover, there is a photo of Princess Mabel with the caption (translated):A GLIMMER OF HOPE FOR BEATRIX AND MABEL. Inside, on page 14, in an article written by Caroline Vaisson, it says that Mgr. Desmond Tutu, a close friend of Princess Mabel, has revealed that Johan Friso opened his eyes and smiled at his wife, as she was kissing him.

I believe there is some progress in his condition , as the hospital is keeping him alive this long. I hope he recovers completely.
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  #1311  
Old 10-20-2012, 11:01 PM
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This was reported weeks ago and is a poor concept. Many times people in comas open theirs eyes and, reflex smile. This isn't "hope", necessarily. The hospital isn't keeping him alive because of any decisions they have made, as it is the request of his family and they are paying the bill. Perhaps, they have been keeping him "alive" in case the young man that just was exonerated of any resposiblity of this accident, would not be accused of "murder" A terrible thought.
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  #1312  
Old 10-21-2012, 12:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Perhaps, they have been keeping him "alive" in case the young man that just was exonerated of any resposiblity of this accident, would not be accused of "murder" A terrible thought.
That thought had crossed my mind as well. I do wish Archbishop tutu had been more discreet.
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  #1313  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
The hospital isn't keeping him alive because of any decisions they have made, as it is the request of his family and they are paying the bill. Perhaps, they have been keeping him "alive" in case the young man that just was exonerated of any resposiblity of this accident, would not be accused of "murder" A terrible thought.
As prince Friso is in a hospital in England, British law applies to the care of him and I don't think is legal in Britain to do anything to shorten a patient's life even if they are kept alive with the help of a machine.
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Old 10-21-2012, 11:35 AM
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That is interesting. So if a patent cannot sustain life without artificial means, they would be kept on a respirator ad infinitum? This is not euthanasia, this is extraordinary means. So, the law does not allow the family to decide when "enough is enough" and remove the artificial device?
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  #1315  
Old 10-21-2012, 01:43 PM
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Britain have the Brain stem death criteria, Brain stem death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and as we don't know the true extent of Friso's condition we don't know whether he fulfills the criteria or not. In most other countries the criteria for when a person is to be considered dead is whole brain dead, Brain death - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As we don't know the full extent of Friso's brain damage we can only speculate, but I have studied cognitive science and the more I've learned about the brain the more fascinating it gets. It's possible to have some brain stem functions while the rest of the brain (the higher brain where our consciousness, memories and all the other functions that makes us "us") is totally lost and can't be retrieved, which means that a person is still considered to be alive medically and legally, but there is nothing left of the person but an empty shell of a body without what it is that makes each of us unique.
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  #1316  
Old 10-21-2012, 02:24 PM
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I was wondering.
In a hypothetical situation:
If the British law prohibits 'pulling the plug' and a family (not English) decides to take the comatose to their home-country to do just that, because there it is allowed. Is there a law in GB prohibiting the removal, knowing what the result of that removal would be?
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  #1317  
Old 10-21-2012, 02:42 PM
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I don't think there's anything in British law that would keep family members from being able to transport someone back to their home country, regardless of standards of care in that country.
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  #1318  
Old 10-21-2012, 04:10 PM
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So the family, always has the choice to move the patient and " pull the plug" so to speak, as someone else has termed it. And, I assume they can make that decision at any time?
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  #1319  
Old 10-21-2012, 04:15 PM
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Well "pulling the plug" does happen in the UK, sometimes even ordered by the courts against the wishes of parents of small children when there is no chance of "life".
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  #1320  
Old 10-21-2012, 09:54 PM
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I don't think there is any good way. In many ways our artificial means to keeping a person alive does no favor for the family, but, now and again, it is wonderful. Each must do what is best for them.
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