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  #861  
Old 02-27-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by rmay286 View Post
Either way, if Friso really is brain-dead, he isn't suffering, so I don't see why someone would justify taking him off life support (if he is on life support) as something they need to do for his sake. He won't know the difference between one day, one year, or ten years.
How about because it would leave his mother, his wife, his children, his bothers in limbo. What would be the point of keeping him on life support for 10 years ? Would you honestly want that for yourself? Would you do that to your own family?
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  #862  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:07 PM
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Because people on life support don't just lay there in a lovely state like "Sleeping Beauty". And while he may live in an indefinite coma and atrophy and become a vague shadow of their father and husband, their lives will never have closure and peace. Nor will his. They will grow up in less time than you think and Mabel's life will pass by her and, I, believe, this is the last thing he would want for his family. By the way, rmay286, if you believe as strongly in "heaven", then all these artificial means he is being kept alive by, besides a respirator, are man's way. Without all our wonderful technologies, he couldn't survive, even if he could breathe on his own.
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  #863  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:58 PM
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No, I wouldn't want my family to have the burden of caring for me their whole lives. I am just saying we don't know all the medical facts...even the doctors said that they didn't know if he would wake up. I think it is too soon to say "they need to make a decision." With time, perhaps it will become more clear exactly how permanent Friso's condition is.

I read up a little bit on brain injury, and there is a difference between a vegetative state, a persistent or permanent vegetative state, and brain death. In the UK, 12 months must elapse before a "continuous vegetative state" can be classed as a "permanent vegetative state." I'm not sure we know exactly where Friso's condition falls on that spectrum...the fact that they're sending him to a rehabilitation centre, and that the doctors mentioned a possibility of him waking up, seems to suggest that he is not "brain dead" (others can correct me if I'm wrong).
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  #864  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:15 PM
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These physicians are in a very difficult position. No one said they had to make a decision post haste. As I stated before, I am sure they will confer with other physicians, before any decision can be made. This is the "rock and the hard place". The doctors actually said, they was scant hope that he would regain consciousness. And, he has suffered "severe" brain damage. Neither statement lend themselves to much hope. But that is up to his family.
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  #865  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:46 AM
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For many of us, quality of life includes consciousness and functioning. Hopefully, the family members have discussed this amongst themselves in the past. Pain is not the only thing that diminishes quality of life, not at all.
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  #866  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:35 AM
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To our friends from Netherlands, I read Prince Friso was the most loved and cherished of the 3 brothers in your country, is it true ? and why ?
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  #867  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Rosapru View Post
To our friends from Netherlands, I read Prince Friso was the most loved and cherished of the 3 brothers in your country, is it true ? and why ?
No,not true.He maybe is always a little bit of the favorite son to HM,( NOT that HM loves the other two less),the "manager" & financial expert of the family,and the most brilliant in terms of intelligence,yes.Exceedingly brilliant.He did two studies simultaniously,economics and aircraft and space technologies and was immensily admired for pulling that off as he did,Cum Laude.His expertise was always in demand,a vast knowledge on the most complicated of problems,and their solutions,he had it all.

He always kept a low profile and was the least known of the three brothers actually.But what did come out time and again is what immense wealth of knowledge he had,be it in the field of nuclear energy or space stations and advanced technics and use of satellites and how they might help solving problems down here...In short,there wasn't a field he didn't have,or found,a solution for.He was the brains,the thinker.And a unusual witty guy,a sense of humour that left all in stitches.Besotted with his own beautifull family and his mom and siblings and their families.

And on another note.HM briefly visited here over the weekend arriving saturday and leaving for Lech again on sunday.The PM returned from his wintersport holidays last saturday too,he said he couldn't bare to have fun in these circumstances after last weeks devastating press conference on Prince Friso's condition and prefers to stay in touch in The Hague instead.
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  #868  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:08 AM
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Good info on who Friso is as a person. As I've said I know nothing about him except he married Mabel. Their daughters are so young to have to be going through this. I just started wondering how Beatrix can go on reigning (or does she rule) with her son in a possible permanent coma.
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  #869  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
How about because it would leave his mother, his wife, his children, his bothers in limbo. What would be the point of keeping him on life support for 10 years ? Would you honestly want that for yourself? Would you do that to your own family?
I agree and I am sure that most posters would agree BUT - it is one thing to say - even to your closest family - "I wouldnt want this for myself" but another for your closest family to actually pull the plug. Even though they know you wanted it and its may be the right thing they will have to live with the consequences that mean in fact ending a life (however the circumstances) and may hesitate because in the end you never know.

It is probably much easier if the person concerned has reached a certain age, because at some point we all have to die, and has lived a full life in contrast to a man in his prime, like Friso, who has half a life before him and a young wife & children.

Its a tough decision and in the back of your mind there will always be doubts about what was right or wrong.
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  #870  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:37 AM
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A very interesting article indeed in the Irish Independent. Thanks for posting it, MarNoe.

I am homing in on the comments made by Dr Andy Eynon, a consultant in neurosciences intensive care and the director of major trauma at Southampton Universities NHS Trust.

He said it normally took months to determine how well a patient with a severe brain injury might recover.

"You can't say somebody is in a persistent vegetative state until six months after an injury involving lack of oxygen to the brain, or 12 months after a trauma injury to the brain.

"In the early stages, a week or so post-injury, it is very difficult to predict where on that spectrum the patient will be. Over the years we have been astonished at the number of people that can recover and regain very valuable lives. I have seen some people recover from extremely severe injuries."

This gives me hope. !!
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  #871  
Old 02-28-2012, 12:39 PM
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Dr. Eynon is just speculating here, as he has not been consulted and has no personal knowledge of the event. The DRF has been given information that we are not privy to. Many physicians will be interviewed to give their views. That is not to say that they are incorrect, but may have no basis in fact for this case. Unless you have seen the patient and seen all the material pertinent to that patient, you are speculating.
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  #872  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post
i think the prince wrote in his will that he wished to die if something like this were to occur. however, in austria they assume the "right of retraction" of a person, so the will does not have any value.

i wonder if the will still confirms this and if so, whether the family will take the appropriate measures to make sure they fulfill it or still assume the "right of retraction". the doctor seemed to confirm that the family was looking for a rehab clinic, so maybe this is the case, in which case, it seems sensible as well since they knew the prince the most.
I'm not an attorney nor do I know medical law in Austria~ so perhaps some Austrian posters can explain:" in austria they assume the "right of retraction" of a person, so the will does not have any value" in Prince Friso's case. I would think a royal prince would have "air tight" legal documents directing his family and government to deal with a terrible incident like this in the rare and unlikely event it might happen.

Personally, I have a living will and a medical directive instructing my surviving family to be removed from artificial life sustaining medical procedures, so they would be clear as to my wishes. I would not want my parents or children left wondering what I would want them to do... Last October, my beloved Aunt signed such a document in the hospital, and died a few days later. At first her family was angry, but now I know, with all my heart, they are glad she was left to expire on her OWN terms~
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  #873  
Old 02-28-2012, 01:11 PM
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IF Friso really has such legal documents directing his family to deal with such a terrible incident then of course they are valid in Austria.
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  #874  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:08 PM
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Seeing the same Friso pic in the papers and on newssites, struck me how much he resembles his older brother. Their faces look so much alike.
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  #875  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:29 PM
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Austrian law has nothing to do with this. He is a Duch citizen and Queen's son. Their decision whichever it is, will take place in his country, where he should be transfered.
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  #876  
Old 02-28-2012, 02:51 PM
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The fact that the treating doctor stated that Friso sustained severe damage to his brain, makes one wonder if there is any chance he will ever wake up. The family is faced with a difficult road ahead. . Right now the family is trying to come to terms with what has happened. Sadly what decisions we would make in private, theirs will eventually become private. But whatever decision(s) they make will be made from love. And fortunately, this family has the finances to afford the best care for Prince Friso, something not all families can do.
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  #877  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:01 PM
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Austrian law has nothing to do with this. He is a Duch citizen and Queen's son. Their decision whichever it is, will take place in his country, where he should be transfered.
He and his wife are residents of the United Kingdom. His children go to school there. There are also reports that there are no suitable hospitals in The Netherlands to deal with his condition and that the best neurological facility in Europe is in London, Queens Square, so I don`t think it is a guarantee that he will be returned to The Netherlands. Also, if his family do have to make the ultimate decision it may be best to do that in another country.
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  #878  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine

Also, if his family do have to make the ultimate decision it may be best to do that in another country.
Imo the Dutch royal family will act openly in front of their citizens and according to the law of their country.
It is the opinion i have of the DRF.
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  #879  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:51 PM
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The speculation about living wills and "pulling the plug" is almost pointless, because no document can predict every variation of every situation, and even the wisest, most caring doctors might disagree about a patient's status, prognosis, or chances.

I don't say this to criticize anyone for posting about it or discussing anything, I'm expressing my own opinion (from experience) about how frustrating and overwhelming such a situation is.

About the only thing we can "know" is that this must be an agonizing time for the entire DRF. In the midst of trying to manage "practical" decisions about where/when to move Prince Friso (and a million other things), I'm sure they're hoping and praying for a miracle, getting discouraged, feeling overwhelmed, and trying to ensure they do the very best for everyone involved.

Having been there myself, my heart goes out to them.
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  #880  
Old 02-28-2012, 03:52 PM
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The doctors actually said, they was scant hope that he would regain consciousness. And, he has suffered "severe" brain damage. Neither statement lend themselves to much hope.
No, the doctor did actually NOT say there was scant hope. He said: "At present it is not certain". Which means he does not know what is going to happen.
He also said that a rehab would take months, if not years (because the damage is that severe). This means to me at least there is a possibility of rehabilitation.
Actually the doctor was more neutral than some posters here who insist that Friso is in a vegetative state, with no chance of ever regaining consciousness. I don't know where they have their knowledge from, perhaps they belong to the Dutch royal family?
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