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  #841  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sjetajiem View Post
What I understood from the neurologist-intensivist Kuiper who gave explication at the press-conference the prince is on life support at the IC.
He suggested last Fryday that the prince if he could breath on his own could soon leave the IC.
This morning, monday the prince was still at the IC (this according to Austrian news)

Source: de Telegraaf Dossier prins Friso
I also read that he is definitely on 'life-support' and cannot support life without as of yet. The brain is damaged [what exact section has not been stated publically] I agree with Lucien, prayer is all WE can do at the present time.

We had a situation like this in my family where a member was "brought back" in ambulance after actually dying in kitchen. She was on life support for 10 days before letter was accepted by hospital to remove. This even after she had a living will stating no life support. That living will became null and void once the EMI got her heart beating. She was taken to hospital on artificial support. It is an awful thing for any family to go through, but to go through it so publically must to a thousand times worse.
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  #842  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Regina View Post
What a strange post I must say. So you'll burn a candle (?) for him in order to see him dead? Do you know if Prince Friso is in extreme OR intractable pain? I am sure you don't. Did someone tell you that Friso has reached the point at which his body can no longer support life? You don't. So this kind of futile or "loving" wishes for his "end" should never exist.

Is he terminally ill? No, Friso is brain damaged and is in coma. All of his other bodily functions are essentially normal, so praise the Lord (the Maker, as you called Him) because this human being still have chances to get better.

I am glad Prince Friso is still alive. IMO every moment of the Prince's life is intrinsically valuable and his life itself is never futile. Never. Yes, maybe many here won't post again about Friso' current royal events... it doesnt mean he is not valuable anymore.

Trully sad when so Many here decided that Friso is useless. My words are "cruel", right? Then again, we must ask ourselves when we view images of cognitively impaired patients, whether the pain that we feel is for the patient (or the family's) or whether it is our own... It is our own thoughts of the horror of a life without cognition that leads us to project that pain onto Friso who may not be suffering at all.

I'm struly sorry for all this, and I'm praying for the prince and his family, so may God's will be done.

How do you know Prince Friso's bodily functions are normal? He suffered a heart attack and was without oxygen and blood flow to every organ in his body for possibly longer than 50 minutes depending on how long he was without oxygen and in cardiac arrest prior to being rescued. According to the MRI he isn't slightly or moderately brain damaged....he suffered MASSIVE brain damage. He is being kept alive by machines and could remain in that state indefinitely. That is inhumane for him and his family. Even if he were to awaken he will more than likely be in a vegetative state.


I agree with Lucien. The kindest thing to happen at this point is that if he were to suffer another cardiac arrest and/or other organ failure that he be allowed to go peacefully.
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  #843  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:59 AM
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I don't even think that the final amount of dead brain tissue is measurable at the moment. Due to lack of oxygen, the cells of the gray braintissue have died. Now the dead tissue gets reduced, scars are build. This will take up to four weeks, only then the final results are viewable on a scan. Surviving brain tissue can still take over functions, it is still possible that the patient can get more alert. We don't know if the prince has some funktion in the cerebrum, or cerebellum, or is left with basic brain stem functions. In the next weeks his body has so much to do with absorbing the dead braintissue and re-organizing what is left that only over time the ultimate harm will become clear.

My father was basically in a coma for 4 weeks before he started the long way trough recovery to the state he is now. I do think that there is still a chance for getting a bit better for Friso.
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  #844  
Old 02-27-2012, 10:59 AM
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I have staffed in intensive care. I am keeping an open mind, especially as we actively "cool" cardiac arrest patients.
As Charles II (I believe) once said "where there is life there is hope"

We can hope and we can pray, because that really is all any of us outside the family and hospital can do.
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  #845  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post
What a strange post I must say. So you'll burn a candle (?) for him in order to see him dead? Do you know if Prince Friso is in extreme OR intractable pain? I am sure you don't. Did someone tell you that Friso has reached the point at which his body can no longer support life? You don't. So this kind of futile or "loving" wishes for his "end" should never exist.

Is he terminally ill? No, Friso is brain damaged and is in coma. All of his other bodily functions are essentially normal, so praise the Lord (the Maker, as you called Him) because this human being still have chances to get better.

I am glad Prince Friso is still alive. IMO every moment of the Prince's life is intrinsically valuable and his life itself is never futile. Never. Yes, maybe many here won't post again about Friso' current royal events... it doesnt mean he is not valuable anymore.

Trully sad when so Many here decided that Friso is useless. My words are "cruel", right? Then again, we must ask ourselves when we view images of cognitively impaired patients, whether the pain that we feel is for the patient (or the family's) or whether it is our own... It is our own thoughts of the horror of a life without cognition that leads us to project that pain onto Friso who may not be suffering at all.

I'm struly sorry for all this, and I'm praying for the prince and his family, so may God's will be done.
One reads into anything what one wants,but I'm sure everybody else read that I mean I burn a candle for him and the RF,always,regardless.And for the rest no,he will never get better,not the sliteghst bit,sad enough.He will be vegatative for the remainder.
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  #846  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Regina View Post
What a strange post I must say. So you'll burn a candle (?) for him in order to see him dead? Do you know if Prince Friso is in extreme OR intractable pain? I am sure you don't. Did someone tell you that Friso has reached the point at which his body can no longer support life? You don't. So this kind of futile or "loving" wishes for his "end" should never exist.

Is he terminally ill? No, Friso is brain damaged and is in coma. All of his other bodily functions are essentially normal, so praise the Lord (the Maker, as you called Him) because this human being still have chances to get better.

I am glad Prince Friso is still alive. IMO every moment of the Prince's life is intrinsically valuable and his life itself is never futile. Never. Yes, maybe many here won't post again about Friso' current royal events... it doesnt mean he is not valuable anymore.

Trully sad when so Many here decided that Friso is useless. My words are "cruel", right? Then again, we must ask ourselves when we view images of cognitively impaired patients, whether the pain that we feel is for the patient (or the family's) or whether it is our own... It is our own thoughts of the horror of a life without cognition that leads us to project that pain onto Friso who may not be suffering at all.

I'm struly sorry for all this, and I'm praying for the prince and his family, so may God's will be done.
No one has said he is useless or of no value At the end of your post you say "may God's will be done." That is what the other posters are saying as well. I would imagine that Friso isn't suffering at this point, but his family most definitely is.
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  #847  
Old 02-27-2012, 11:44 AM
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Yes, let's remember the SAR workers all over the world and their dedication to what they do - and how they feel when accidents happen and when situations are as difficult as this one. As I understand it, Prince Friso's skiing partner was in training for or was an SAR worker, so I do keep him very much in my thoughts and prayers, he must feel terrible.

Where I live, "severe brain damage" (and there's quite a bit of it in Hawaii due to near drownings or head trauma while in the ocean) means that brain stem function is impaired as well as gray cells/upper brain functioning. Patients are transported eventually to the big hospital on Oahu (and in SoCal, to UCLA). I would like to see the Prince be moved to a major neuro-center like one of those, unless of course they've already done significant consultation with doctors from all over and the existing scans are definitive.

I too am keeping an open mind, but I am an optimist by nature. There's a man in Japan who lost one half of his brain cells (he was a child when it happened) and he leads a happy life and is a great artist. I know this is not quite the same as this situation and I am not trying to create false hope. But I also believe that thinking the man has no hope isn't something I can do just yet.

The reports I've read do make it sound as if there might be brain stem damage, I'm not in denial here - but again, I hope they seek several opinions and I'm sure some more time will pass before anyone discusses removing him from the machines. For those of us who were not very familiar with Dutch royalty, this is such a sad way to get to know them. They are admirable in their strength and are handling their public position very well, with grace and courage.
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  #848  
Old 02-27-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texankitcat View Post
How do you know Prince Friso's bodily functions are normal? He suffered a heart attack and was without oxygen and blood flow to every organ in his body for possibly longer than 50 minutes depending on how long he was without oxygen and in cardiac arrest prior to being rescued. According to the MRI he isn't slightly or moderately brain damaged....he suffered MASSIVE brain damage. He is being kept alive by machines and could remain in that state indefinitely. That is inhumane for him and his family. Even if he were to awaken he will more than likely be in a vegetative state.


I agree with Lucien. The kindest thing to happen at this point is that if he were to suffer another cardiac arrest and/or other organ failure that he be allowed to go peacefully.

I agree. We're not talking about life anymore, we're talking about quality of life, and right now, he has none. If I were in his family's position, I know what I would do, as hard as it would be.
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  #849  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:25 PM
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No one on this board knows for sure what Friso's quality of life is, or if he is in pain or what part of his body is still working. People are just speculating and giving their opinion; even though situations like Terri Shiavo and other more personal stories are being brought up, I don't think anyone is saying that Friso should be unhooked from the machines because he is "useless". I'm sure everyone hopes he will get better, and the people who do know the entirety of the situation, his family, are the one's who are making the decisions for him. I believe right now they are looking for or are getting ready to transfer him to a rehab center.
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  #850  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:34 PM
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De Standaard (Flemish newspaper) speculating that Friso might come to Liège University Hospital: Google Vertaling
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  #851  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:38 PM
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i think the prince wrote in his will that he wished to die if something like this were to occur. however, in austria they assume the "right of retraction" of a person, so the will does not have any value.

i wonder if the will still confirms this and if so, whether the family will take the appropriate measures to make sure they fulfill it or still assume the "right of retraction". the doctor seemed to confirm that the family was looking for a rehab clinic, so maybe this is the case, in which case, it seems sensible as well since they knew the prince the most.
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  #852  
Old 02-27-2012, 01:52 PM
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I think we must respect whatever decision Prince Friso's family makes concerning his future. His wife, mother and brothers are those who have his best interests at heart; whatever they decide will be what they think is best for the Prince.

We know only what has been officially released or said during the press conference. Beyond that, everything else is simply speculation.

My prayers are with them; whatever the outcome, it is going to be unimaginably hard and trying times for the Dutch Royal Family.
  #853  
Old 02-27-2012, 02:50 PM
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Hopefully soon regains health. Good luck Prince.
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  #854  
Old 02-27-2012, 03:39 PM
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A very interesting article -

Prince Friso, a ski accident and the terrible trauma facing the Dutch royal family - Europe, World News - Independent.ie
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  #855  
Old 02-27-2012, 06:22 PM
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What an honour it would be for my town !
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdm View Post
De Standaard (Flemish newspaper) speculating that Friso might come to Liège University Hospital: Google Vertaling
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  #856  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:04 PM
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I keep thinking about the Terry Scivo case. I was in favor of removing her from her feeding tube. That poor woman had no quality of life in my opinion. I know that quality of life is very tricky, my definition might be different from someone else's definition. So my thought on this situation depends on Prince Friso's quality of life. If he is going to be kept alive my artificial means, then I would suggest that no more measures be taken to extent that life. I read some of the comments about the quality of life of his family, and I think those who commented are more than accurate. What does Princess Mabel do while her husband is on life support for what could be the rest of his life. Will his children really know him, 10, 15,20 years from now? Those are some of the things I consider. At this point I'm not sure that I know enough to form a educated opinion, I'm just speculating, just like many. And I for one, don't need to know, this is a private matter for the DRF, of course, my curiosity does what to know more.
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  #857  
Old 02-27-2012, 07:21 PM
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Princess Mabel will work and raise her children. Prince Friso's children will still love him, no matter what condition he's in. To them, right now, it's probably like their father is sleeping; for him to be dead--unable for the girls to see and touch and goodnight--would be a very different thing. Adults, although they grieve, understand what death is. Children don't understand. To a child, a parent's death is an abandonment and affects them for the rest of their lives.


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What does Princess Mabel do while her husband is on life support for what could be the rest of his life. Will his children really know him, 10, 15,20 years from now?
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  #858  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:26 PM
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Princess Mabel will work and raise her children. Prince Friso's children will still love him, no matter what condition he's in. To them, right now, it's probably like their father is sleeping; for him to be dead--unable for the girls to see and touch and goodnight--would be a very different thing. Adults, although they grieve, understand what death is. Children don't understand. To a child, a parent's death is an abandonment and affects them for the rest of their lives.
First of all, I don't, believe, that the DRF will allow Prince Friso to live a living death. They will consult with specialists and go from there. I am sure they are doing that now. Prince Friso's children are very young, and, unless he is a viable father, not a comatose one, he will exit their lives of real meaning. Living dead and dead dead is, basically, the same thing. Mabel is a young, vital woman. She has a right to a life, too. She will, always love her husband, but she has a right to closure and to go forward. And, I think I read where he left instructions about this in his will. The picture you paint is ghastly and, I think, IMHO, unthinkable.
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  #859  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
Princess Mabel will work and raise her children. Prince Friso's children will still love him, no matter what condition he's in. To them, right now, it's probably like their father is sleeping; for him to be dead--unable for the girls to see and touch and goodnight--would be a very different thing.
I thought of this too when I heard about Prince Friso. My dad was in the hospital for serious surgery when I was 7 years old. Thankfully he recovered, while Prince Friso doesn't seem to have much chance for any recovery. But I remember my cousin telling me that my dad was "in a coma." I didn't know what a coma was, and the word "coma" scared me, but...I also knew that my dad was still alive and in the hospital. I am trying to think how I would have felt if my cousin had said instead that my dad had died. I think 7 year-olds do have a conception of death, because they see dead animals, dead birds, etc. But they don't understand medical terms and the idea of being "brain dead" or "in a vegetative state." I knew what death was when I was 7 years old, but I didn't really understand what a coma was. I just knew my dad was still alive.

In my opinion, it's better for the two little girls to hear that their dad is still alive but unconscious, than to be told that he is dead. No, he won't recognize them or communicate with him, but to them he will still be alive and just "sleeping." Adults think in terms of function, in terms of a person's productivity and usefulness, and they think about what they would want if they were essentially brain-dead. But little children don't imagine how they would feel in their dad's place or think of him as "useless" when he's unconscious. They just see him as their dad.
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  #860  
Old 02-27-2012, 08:47 PM
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First of all, I don't, believe, that the DRF will allow Prince Friso to live a living death. They will consult with specialists and go from there. I am sure they are doing that now. Prince Friso's children are very young, and, unless he is a viable father, not a comatose one, he will exit their lives of real meaning. Living dead and dead dead is, basically, the same thing.
No, I don't think it is the same thing. I did think that way, a few years ago when the Terri Schiavo story was in the news, but I've changed my mind. "Living dead" and "dead dead" are not the same thing. I think the difference is "hope." You can call it false hope or vain hope, and I think from the doctors' words it seems medical officials have no real hope that he will ever recover, but it's still not the same thing as death. In death there really is no hope.

Also, depending on what you believe, why is "living dead" so terrible? If you believe in heaven and think Friso will go there, then why does it matter if his death is delayed a few more years? Whether he dies now or later, he'll still spend eternity in heaven. And if you believe death is just unconsciousness, then why rush death when he's unconscious now anyway...but with a glimmer of hope that maybe, someday, with some new medical discovery, he might recover a bit.

Either way, if Friso really is brain-dead, he isn't suffering, so I don't see why someone would justify taking him off life support (if he is on life support) as something they need to do for his sake. He won't know the difference between one day, one year, or ten years.
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