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  #781  
Old 02-25-2012, 09:56 PM
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Yeah, I don't get the desire of people to say "Well, because I don't like this topic of conversation, the thread should be closed/people should stop talking about it."

If you're uncomfortable taking part in a discussion of such delicate and personal matters, that's fine. Not everyone wants to talk about things like this, whether on the Internet or face-to-face with someone. That doesn't mean that people who would like to, shouldn't. That's not your call to make.
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  #782  
Old 02-25-2012, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XeniaCasaraghi View Post
I have never heard of this story. The only story I have heard of in depth is Terri Shiavo. I also recall reading a story about 2yrs ago of a woman waking up from some sort of coma, PVS, or being brain dead, but after a few weeks she went back into it. With Mrs von Bulow it sounded like she was still in there for the 25yrs but her quality of life was....not "good". Gawd I would never want that to happen to me. But I could see how her family would be unwilling to cut off life support for someone who is showing signs of being still in there somewhere.
As for Friso, why has the conversation all of a sudden turned to this direction? I haven't been glued to this subject like others, so I don't know why the hope of a few days ago has turned into talk of PVS and quality of life.
The von Bulow story was HUGE in the very early 80's, so depending on your age you might be too young to remember it.

The name of the movie that was made is "Reversal of Fortune" with Glenn Close as Sunny. Jeremy Irons won an Oscar for his portrayal of Claus.
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  #783  
Old 02-25-2012, 10:33 PM
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I hope that everyone on this board has filled out their Living Will and a medical power of attorney. If you haven't, honor Prince Frisco by doing so immediately and make sure that your family and everyone you know has done the same.
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  #784  
Old 02-25-2012, 10:34 PM
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Yes, I remember the von Bulow story back in the day; it received its fair share of publicity as did the Terry Schiavo case several years back.
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  #785  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:58 AM
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This tread is my sole source of information about Friso so I wish it remains open. The accident barely made the news here when it happened last week (and Canada kinda have a special friendship with the Netherlands since WW2 - the Spring tulips Festival in Ottawa is a good example of this).

I have an eldery mother in palliative care and I'm afraid my family might rely on me to make some difficult decisions in the weeks or months to come. It might be one of the reasons why I appreciate the dignity and the solidarity of the RF. I'm also curious and interested in their decision-making process. When facing those kind of decisions, one day you can go left and the next you go right then your heart make you change your mind...followed by your head making you turn around again
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  #786  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:00 AM
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One must consider the family, but the family must consider their loved one and how they perceive they would want to live or not. That is the real issue. That is why, a Living Will is important as other posters have said.
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  #787  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
The von Bulow story was HUGE in the very early 80's, so depending on your age you might be too young to remember it.

The name of the movie that was made is "Reversal of Fortune" with Glenn Close as Sunny. Jeremy Irons won an Oscar for his portrayal of Claus.
I know this is off-topic but,

the Sunny von Bulow story is still a common topic in certain circles of New York and I imagine most of the city as well. I was born after it happened and the media hype around it yet I still know the details well. So perhaps it is a mixture of geography and age that determines whether you know the von Bulow story or not?
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  #788  
Old 02-26-2012, 01:46 AM
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I understand why some members want this thread to be closed, but I can't see that the discussion and opionons shared here are in any way harming the privacy of the DRF, as I doubt they are aware of the existence of this thread. Their request for privacy was more aimed towards the press and other news media, and not the discussions between people sharing theri thoughts, and that is how I see these forums.

Censorship is never a good idea, if this thread are to be closed because some members think the subject is too sensitive regarding the feelings of a royal family at a difficult time, that could be the beginning of a discussion of other threads to be closed because the subjects are too private (for example I don't think that the private lives of the out-of-wedlock children of Albert of Monaco should be discussed, but I stay away from threads that I don't feel comfortable with and don't demand that the threads should be closed). It's one thing to close a thread when the posts are getting too far away from the issues discussed, but I can't say that I've seen that happening here yet.
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  #789  
Old 02-26-2012, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
I know this is off-topic but,

the Sunny von Bulow story is still a common topic in certain circles of New York and I imagine most of the city as well. I was born after it happened and the media hype around it yet I still know the details well. So perhaps it is a mixture of geography and age that determines whether you know the von Bulow story or not?
I was living in Los Angeles and was a teen when the von Bulow tragedy made international headlines. I had no idea it is still being discussed but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...she was a wealthy, well connected aristocrat, very much a part of the Eastern Seaboard social scene for years.

I only brought it up to demonstrate just how long it is possible for a severely brain damaged comatose patient to remain in that twilight state...25 years in Sunny's case...and her children apparently never considered the option of doing anything that would have ended it.

They had the money and the means to keep her in a private suite at Lenox Hill for many years attended 24 hrs round the clock...and that is exactly what they did.
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  #790  
Old 02-26-2012, 03:02 AM
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My heart goes out to Princess Mabel and her children.

My biggest curiosity is their financial prediciment. Because they are not heirs to the throne, they have had to get jobs to support themselves because they get no stipend from the government. Does Mabel get paid for her Human Rights Activism/work with The Elders? Who pays for the rehab facility under Europe's socialized medicine? Is there any sort of government assistance like the US's Social Security or Disability Insurance that could help pay for Friso's care and/or make up for the loss of his income?

(Pardon me for not wading through 40 pages of posts that may or may not be relevant to find the answers if these questions have been asked before.)
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  #791  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
I was living in Los Angeles and was a teen when the von Bulow tragedy made international headlines. I had no idea it is still being discussed but I suppose I shouldn't be surprised...she was a wealthy, well connected aristocrat, very much a part of the Eastern Seaboard social scene for years.

I only brought it up to demonstrate just how long it is possible for a severely brain damaged comatose patient to remain in that twilight state...25 years in Sunny's case...and her children apparently never considered the option of doing anything that would have ended it.

They had the money and the means to keep her in a private suite at Lenox Hill for many years attended 24 hrs round the clock...and that is exactly what they did.
Oh, absolutely I understand why you brought it up, I just didn't want the moderators to warn us to get back on topic!

I think part of the reason (out of many) that she wasn't given the dignified death she deserved, by her children ending her life support, was that the investigation into how she became comatose and her husband's participation was always on the table so to speak. Claus was found guilty, then his conviction was overturned, he was found not guilty at a second trial, and so on. The case was never fully closed, and should she have been taken off life-support, it may have made getting evidence (if needed) a lot harder than if she were "alive".

That isn't the case for Friso. While there will be some looking into regarding whether or not his presence, as well as his friend's, off-piste "created" the avalanche, there isn't actually a crime that was committed and needs to be investigated.
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  #792  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168 View Post
My biggest curiosity is their financial prediciment. Because they are not heirs to the throne, they have had to get jobs to support themselves because they get no stipend from the government. Does Mabel get paid for her Human Rights Activism/work with The Elders? Who pays for the rehab facility under Europe's socialized medicine? Is there any sort of government assistance like the US's Social Security or Disability Insurance that could help pay for Friso's care and/or make up for the loss of his income?
As Austria, the Netherlands and U.K. are all part of the European Union and prince Friso have a job and pay taxes, he and his family is most likely covered by the British National Health Service (and perhaps also have a private insurance) the costs will probably be covered by the health care system in the home country, be it U.K. or the Netherlands, as any other citizen who needs health care.
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  #793  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:36 AM
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People asked about the rules for euthanasia in the Netherlands and mentioned their liberality.
In light of the (erronous) statements a politician recently made about our country, I thought I'd explain it.
On a first glance the laws seem simple and indeed 'liberal', but as with everything, things are never simple.
You can tell family and doctors about your wish to have things ended in case you end up in a hopeless life-situation with pain etc. etc. You can even let this wish be noted in your will.
However, in the case of dementia or coma, like with Prince Friso, this wish will not be carried out by the doctors. Their argument is that a person must always be able to retract his wish and in these situations that is not possible.
If, the family still wants that the wish is fulfilled, there are apparently official ways with doctors, specialists in handling and analyzing these situations, to approach.

We were in this situation with my grandfather several years back, with him becoming more and more senile and finding out that we couldn't fulfil his wish. We didn't know about the specialists until years later. Fortunattely, he passed away quickly and so didn't suffer that long. But we were are very surprised about the rules and how they in practice were, or rather, were Not applied.
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  #794  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:12 AM
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i think it is a good idea that the doctor was clear and categoric on the state of the prince. at least that way the press realises the situation and they are left with some breathing space in order to cope with the situation. it must be really hard for mabel with two small daughters.

although this is a bit offtopic, i wonder what tempts skiers to go out with a high risk of avalanche. i am no skier myself, so maybe the question is not relevant: is the level of the skier an important factor to avoid the places where avalanche can happen?

i hope the court with release an official update soon.
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  #795  
Old 02-26-2012, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
although this is a bit offtopic, i wonder what tempts skiers to go out with a high risk of avalanche. i am no skier myself, so maybe the question is not relevant: is the level of the skier an important factor to avoid the places where avalanche can happen?
Have a look at this video to get a feeling what skiing in "champagne powder" is about in Austria.



That was what the prince experienced that day till the avalanche hit him. It had snowed for days and the temperature had been low, so it was a lot of finest powder snow, the so-called "champagne powder", on top of the old, harsher snow.While this is great to ski, it is extemely dangerous as the powdered snow only sits on the old snow, but is not interconnected properly with it. On the prepared slopes, this powder is pressed and thus forms one level of snow which can be skiied on securely.

But of course it is not the same as skiing off-piste in the deep powder snow. The Arlberg area is known for their potential of champagne powder. That is for experienced skiiers only of course but for them it is irresistible.
That's why so many return there year after year!

On that Friday there was blue sky and sunshine, which is already warm at that time of the year. But the rising temperatures of the days before that friday had seen the higher level of snow melting and refreezing and then snowing again,so the powdered snow was interrupted with small layersof ice which made it even more skidding. That's why there were so many avalanches during these days.

The day after the queen and Friso's family had arrived at Lech, the road had to be closed due to avalanches and Lech was only reachable through the air. At Ischgl, not far from Lech in a neighboring valley, an avalanche had even hit a prepared slope. So yes, it was a real risk. But in exchange those who were not hit by an avalanche got a very rare experience of skiing through real deep powder snow.

With today's modern equipment it is not longer as risky as it used to be, but of course you have to carry that equipment with you! I did not grow up in the mountains but I have lived here quite a while now and while I was at first absolutely fascinated by the snow and the countryside etc., the more I experience harsh winters and the often real dangerous sides of heavy snowing, the more I became worried. I'll never forget the first time I heard an avalanche: it has such a dark, a bit howling, but more thunderous sound to it, and then comes crashing down - absolutely deadly!
And this winter is the most dangerous of all, with so much snow in the mountains! People are already afraid that if spring comes fast this year, we will have floodings again on the Danube and the other rivers.
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  #796  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:27 AM
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I am so incredibly sorry for the Dutch Royal Family, especially Princess Mabel, her daughters and the Queen. When the news first appeared, I had hoped the Prince's condition was not very serious and he will make a recovery. Unfortunately, the latest press conference squashed any hopes for that.

The Dutch Royals may have to make some incredibly difficult decisions soon. My thoughts and prayers are with them.
  #797  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:41 AM
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I hope that the court will give us news about Friso soon.
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  #798  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Have a look at this video to get a feeling what skiing in "champagne powder" is about in Austria.



That was what the prince experienced that day till the avalanche hit him. It had snowed for days and the temperature had been low, so it was a lot of finest powder snow, the so-called "champagne powder", on top of the old, harsher snow.While this is great to ski, it is extemely dangerous as the powdered snow only sits on the old snow, but is not interconnected properly with it. On the prepared slopes, this powder is pressed and thus forms one level of snow which can be skiied on securely.

But of course it is not the same as skiing off-piste in the deep powder snow. The Arlberg area is known for their potential of champagne powder. That is for experienced skiiers only of course but for them it is irresistible.
That's why so many return there year after year!

On that Friday there was blue sky and sunshine, which is already warm at that time of the year. But the rising temperatures of the days before that friday had seen the higher level of snow melting and refreezing and then snowing again,so the powdered snow was interrupted with small layersof ice which made it even more skidding. That's why there were so many avalanches during these days.

The day after the queen and Friso's family had arrived at Lech, the road had to be closed due to avalanches and Lech was only reachable through the air. At Ischgl, not far from Lech in a neighboring valley, an avalanche had even hit a prepared slope. So yes, it was a real risk. But in exchange those who were not hit by an avalanche got a very rare experience of skiing through real deep powder snow.

With today's modern equipment it is not longer as risky as it used to be, but of course you have to carry that equipment with you! I did not grow up in the mountains but I have lived here quite a while now and while I was at first absolutely fascinated by the snow and the countryside etc., the more I experience harsh winters and the often real dangerous sides of heavy snowing, the more I became worried. I'll never forget the first time I heard an avalanche: it has such a dark, a bit howling, but more thunderous sound to it, and then comes crashing down - absolutely deadly!
And this winter is the most dangerous of all, with so much snow in the mountains! People are already afraid that if spring comes fast this year, we will have floodings again on the Danube and the other rivers.
Thank you for this insight. I think in the course of time, lessons will be learned from this tragic incident that may help save lives, as you suggest. I also think however, that this accident is also a huge wake up call for those who take the risk of a few flying moments in search of the perfect descent that have the potential of destroying their own lives and the lives of others. Although we are all devastated for Princess Mabel and her family, I for one am also angry that the prince put them in this position. Think of the two young daughters who are asking when their papa will wake up. Yes, accidents happen, but as a family man you should avoid undue risk.
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  #799  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:59 AM
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This is all so sad.
My prayers go with all the dutch royal family, especially Mabel and the children.
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  #800  
Old 02-26-2012, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLV View Post
People asked about the rules for euthanasia in the Netherlands and mentioned their liberality.
In light of the (erronous) statements a politician recently made about our country, I thought I'd explain it.
On a first glance the laws seem simple and indeed 'liberal', but as with everything, things are never simple.
You can tell family and doctors about your wish to have things ended in case you end up in a hopeless life-situation with pain etc. etc. You can even let this wish be noted in your will.
However, in the case of dementia or coma, like with Prince Friso, this wish will not be carried out by the doctors. Their argument is that a person must always be able to retract his wish and in these situations that is not possible.
If, the family still wants that the wish is fulfilled, there are apparently official ways with doctors, specialists in handling and analyzing these situations, to approach.

We were in this situation with my grandfather several years back, with him becoming more and more senile and finding out that we couldn't fulfil his wish. We didn't know about the specialists until years later. Fortunattely, he passed away quickly and so didn't suffer that long. But we were are very surprised about the rules and how they in practice were, or rather, were Not applied.
In Holland it is possible to stop treatment when the situation and the prognosis are that bad that no recovery is possible anymore.
When my mother had a first heavy stroke she fell into a coma.
We, the children, spoke with the doctors that we did not want any treatment, medication and especially no resuscitation.
Of course you are not the one to decide, but doctors are willing to consider the familie's wish.
After the second stroke the next day she could die in peace.
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