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  #721  
Old 02-25-2012, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke of Marmalade View Post
Is it correct that we dont know whether Friso can breathe freely (what means let nature take its way until he either dies or wakes up what can take years or decades) or is on life support (what means that at some point the decision would be taken to switch off or not)?
No, Duke, I don't think anyone on this thread knows whether Friso can breathe freely or is on life support. It certainly was not revealed in today's report from the doctors in Innsbruck.

The speculation seems to be, based on the report of how long Friso was buried and the lengthy re-animation period, as well as the "massive brain damage" that he is not likely to be breathing on his own. But nothing is confirmed to the public.
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  #722  
Old 02-25-2012, 05:38 AM
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I took "one can say too long" to mean being buried for 25 minutes without oxygen, not the 50 minutes of resuscitation.
No, he actually said (in German) "50 minutes of reanimation is a very long time. One could also say, too long". But by the context and by the way he said it I don't think it was meant as criticism. I took it as an "introduction" to the bad prognosis he then had to give.
The English version which is published on the NLRF's website actually leaves out the "reanimation": " Fifty minutes is a very long time. One could say, too long."

This is a nightmare come true for the whole family and I feel very deeply for them.
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  #723  
Old 02-25-2012, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunnystar View Post
No, Duke, I don't think anyone on this thread knows whether Friso can breathe freely or is on life support. It certainly was not revealed in today's report from the doctors in Innsbruck.

The speculation seems to be, based on the report of how long Friso was buried and the lengthy re-animation period, as well as the "massive brain damage" that he is not likely to be breathing on his own. But nothing is confirmed to the public.
Exactly, we don't know this. Actually, we do not know anything except what has been said during the press conference. We do not know what further information apart from this at the conference the doctors gave to the Royal family, because normally not everything is said at a press conference sometimes. Consequently, we know only one piece of the story. All we know is that the family is looking for further treatment for the Prince at the moment. At this stage we only can respect the whish of the family and hope for the best.

And don't forget this family is under shock. What was supposed to be a happy family holiday as each year since 40 years turned out to a sudden nightmare. All this happens in front of the eyes of the world. They do not have to make decisions on Prince Friso, they also have to keep in mind that all their decisions will be discussed and most likely also criticized in the public. Switching off the machines would consequently turn to a political discussion. So, as sad as it is, the Royal Family simply has to evaluate it's decisions more carefully. I think they have handled the situation so far very good.

Also, to he honest, I was until this sad accident happened never much interested in Mabel and Friso, I have to admit, but since last week Princess Mabel and her family earned my highest respect. I admire her strenght how she handles these tough times.
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  #724  
Old 02-25-2012, 06:51 AM
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No, he actually said (in German) "50 minutes of reanimation is a very long time. One could also say, too long". But by the context and by the way he said it I don't think it was meant as criticism. I took it as an "introduction" to the bad prognosis he then had to give.
The English version which is published on the NLRF's website actually leaves out the "reanimation": " Fifty minutes is a very long time. One could say, too long."

This is a nightmare come true for the whole family and I feel very deeply for them.
Ah, thank you for the correction.
Is 50 minutes really that long for resuscitation? I often hear of 30-40 minutes so I wouldn't have thought another 10 minutes would be considered a vast difference...
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  #725  
Old 02-25-2012, 06:53 AM
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The Netherlands royals were low on my list of interest. I only knew them because of Maxima's wedding and my nickname for Mabel as Princess of The Bows. I must admit she has earned my highest respect and she much be going through such a horrible time, especially because she has 2 young daughters.
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  #726  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Naggi View Post
They do not have to make decisions on Prince Friso, they also have to keep in mind that all their decisions will be discussed and most likely also criticized in the public. Switching off the machines would consequently turn to a political discussion.
You're right to the point here, Naggi, it will become a politicum. On the one hand The Netherlands are much more liberal than Germany when it comes to "euthanasia", a word in Dutch that has not the very ugly context it has in Germany. In the Netherlands a deadly ill person can ask for either active or passive help on dying and has a right to it if certain criteria are fulfilled. In Germany active euthanasia is completely forbidden, there is only passive help to die (by switching off the machines) and the help to active suizide which in some case is free of prosecution.

But even in the Netherlands as far as I could gather this right to die does not include coma patients as they don't have the necessary free will to apply and go through the formalities which are in place to protect the patients. I couldn't find out if there is something like the "patient's will" whose decision is to be accepted or at least could be the basis of a decision by those in charge of the patient. If not, then this surely will become a topic now in the Netherlands. I already pity the Rf and especially princess Mabel as this could well become a tough media war with them right in the middle.

So I do hope for the time being that the family will find the right clinic for further treatment or thatthe decision is taken from them by nature.
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  #727  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
Ah, thank you for the correction.
Is 50 minutes really that long for resuscitation? I often hear of 30-40 minutes so I wouldn't have thought another 10 minutes would be considered a vast difference...
It's not that long. And there was hope that the cool temperature might help. And I don't think a resuscitator works with a watch in his hand anyhow.

But when it comes to the damage that is done to the brain it can make a vast difference I think.
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Old 02-25-2012, 07:36 AM
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I took 'one can say too long' as the Doctor's way of indicating that the situation is pretty much hopeless without saying it outright. It indicates that things are not going to get better and is a cue to everyone listening to prepare for the utterly tragic worst.
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  #729  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:49 AM
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People will speculate, whether it is in an open forum as this or at home/work etc in a more private setting or in newspapers, and I think the DRF are aware of people are interested in prince Friso's condition and will speculate about what will happen in the future, maybe the information given Friday was a way to prepare the public for what may come.
I agree with what you say. This is a forum for us to share our thoughts and feelings. It's not like the royal family is reading any of it and it's not like we are saying it in front of them. This is a discussion among people with similar interests. Although it may come across as a bit unseemly to speculate online, I think it ok that we share what's on our minds
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  #730  
Old 02-25-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by American Dane View Post
Ah, thank you for the correction.
Is 50 minutes really that long for resuscitation? I often hear of 30-40 minutes so I wouldn't have thought another 10 minutes would be considered a vast difference...
It depends on the oxygene.

You can massage, and restart a heart for hours for that matter as long as there is an influx of oxygene and that oxygene is pumped though the system from time to time. However little it may be.
That's why you pump so hard, when you apply CPR in order to start a heart and/or continue to massage and stimulate a heart that is fluctuating, albeit more gently.
There is a good system of "pipes" from the heart to the lungs and the brain and that's what matters. So the heart may not start each time you press, but you ensure that some blood go past the lungs, pick up some oxygene and that some of that oxygene-rich blood reach the brain. That's why it's important to keep pumping until you reach a hospital or someone else takes over.
(I know this is basic, but you'd be surprised how many there are who don't know the basic principles behind CPR).

The problem with Friso as I understand it, is that he was deprived of oxygene for up to 20 minuttes before CPR was even applied. So his brain was already dying.

It's another thing to drop from a heart attack and someone starts to administer CPR within minuttes. In that case there is still some oxygene left in your body and the brain hasn't started to die yet, before fresh blood is pumped to the brain. However inadequte that may be. - And your chances of complete recovery are quite good.
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  #731  
Old 02-25-2012, 08:20 AM
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Hi this is my first post, but this is nothing to crow about. I am responding to say this is a tragic situation and it is for the family to make. There are no right or wrong decisions, there are human beings trying to decide the fate of another human being. I feel truly sad for Prince Johan's family during this difficult time. It is very important for us to remember these people are real and it is not a soap opera with fictional characters. To read some of the comments people write is disgusting, these are people like you, except they are public identities. Put yourself in their shoes and have some compassion. There is no blame only tragedy, whether brain dead or a vegetable, a mother, wife, brother and children are involved - hope is what keeps these people going.

Hope!

Compassion!

Two emotions that so many lack........
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  #732  
Old 02-25-2012, 08:48 AM
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To tell the truth in case he´s able to breathe on his own and considering his excellent physical state of health (I mean he was very fit) it can last years until he finally dies.
In case he needs artificial respiration they might be able to decide whether they stop that help and we might get some sad news in between the next weeks....
I wonder anyway how they were able to bring his heart into function after 50! minutes though they must have known that his brain was already damaged irreversible.
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  #733  
Old 02-25-2012, 09:01 AM
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There are a lot of informations given on these pages and links. If you would read them then you could stop wondering.
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  #734  
Old 02-25-2012, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Eden View Post
Hi this is my first post, but this is nothing to crow about. I am responding to say this is a tragic situation and it is for the family to make. There are no right or wrong decisions, there are human beings trying to decide the fate of another human being. I feel truly sad for Prince Johan's family during this difficult time. It is very important for us to remember these people are real and it is not a soap opera with fictional characters. To read some of the comments people write is disgusting, these are people like you, except they are public identities. Put yourself in their shoes and have some compassion. There is no blame only tragedy, whether brain dead or a vegetable, a mother, wife, brother and children are involved - hope is what keeps these people going.

Hope!

Compassion!

Two emotions that so many lack........

Hi and welcome! Of course they are real, with real emotions, worries and problems.
I heard of this sad news just now, I still hope he makes it in the end! Good luck to him!!
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  #735  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:12 PM
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Wat staat de koninklijke familie te wachten? - Ski-ongeluk prins Johan Friso - VK

Discussion on care, treatment and termination options of coma patients in The Netherlands and the UK.
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  #736  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:27 PM
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Prince Willem-Alexander en Princess Máxima are attending a service in a church in Lech at the moment.
  #737  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Wat staat de koninklijke familie te wachten? - Ski-ongeluk prins Johan Friso - VK

Discussion on care, treatment and termination options of coma patients in The Netherlands and the UK.
I just got banned from GREMB for raising this subject!
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  #738  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:51 PM
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What does that acronym refer to, please?
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  #739  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:55 PM
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What does that acronym refer to, please?
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  #740  
Old 02-25-2012, 01:02 PM
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Thank you.
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