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  #481  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zonk1189
Do you honestly think the Masako's life is going to get easier? While I am sure she wishes for a healthy baby (be it boy or girl)..I think Masako's life will remain the same if not get worse. She might constantly have the birth of this innocent child thrown in her face....prime evidence of her failure to do her duty (as you so nicely pointed out).
If things get worse for CP Masako it's because she has already burned her bridges with the Imperial Family with her whining. Princess Kiko hadn't given birth to a boy either but yet she is close the the Emperor and Emperess. Why? Maybe she's just a nicer person. Maybe she is just trying to fulfill her duty. Even if she has a girl, Kiko will be appreciated for trying.
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  #482  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
About Masako: She whines too much in my opinion. The fact is she willingly married into a very conservative monarchy. Her #1 duty as CPss was to bear heirs. It was not to be an ambassador and travel around the world. Now many CP's do this but as CP Mary revealed before she married CP Frederik, her first priority was to give birth to an heir. Her role as CP would develop over time but the main purpose of monarchy is continuity. It is all about the heir. Maybe that doesn't sound romantic but there it is.
By all accounts, she didn't do it willingly, she married into the family reluctantly after being put under pressure from her family and the royal family, who were getting concerned about Naruhito's single state and his insistence that he wouldn't marry anyone else. Unfortunately, stress can be quite a good contraceptive, and nobody seemed to go out of their way to reduce the stress she was feeling. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if her life had been made a little easier early on, perhaps she wouldn't have had so much trouble producing an heir.
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  #483  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
By all accounts, she didn't do it willingly, she married into the family reluctantly after being put under pressure from her family and the royal family, who were getting concerned about Naruhito's single state and his insistence that he wouldn't marry anyone else. Unfortunately, stress can be quite a good contraceptive, and nobody seemed to go out of their way to reduce the stress she was feeling. Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing, but if her life had been made a little easier early on, perhaps she wouldn't have had so much trouble producing an heir.
I know this thread is about Kiko being pregnant...but Elspeth you hit the nail on the head!

Masako didn't want to marry Naruhito in the first place. Not because she didn't love him but because she did know what family she was marrying into. But she believed her husband, and her in-laws as well. They knew he wasn't going to marry anyone else. As far as I am concerned the emperor and the empress (especially after the treatment she received) have failed as well.....there is enough blame to go around IMO.
  #484  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Wouldn't the same pressure apply if it were Naruhito and Masako having a male heir, if that's what this child will be? Imo, the objection to this situation by many is that it is Akishino and Kiko who might be the parents of the heir and not the CP couple.
It isn't just that it's Akishino and Kiko in particular; it's that there's a lot of political and social issues as well. The conservatives in the IHA and other part of the government are fiercely resistant to changes in the inheritance laws and are wanting things to stay more traditional as part of a wider move to redefine Japan's role in Asia. It looks as though this pregnancy is part of the whole conservative thing rather than being a happy accident, which would normally be the case for a 40-something mother whose youngest child is approaching her teens.

The other issue is that things were so bad for Masako that Naruhito felt he had to speak out in public to defend her, Akishino then turned round and criticised him in public, and now we have this pregnancy. It does have some overtones of a political power play, not just a decision to have another child because they happen to want another child.
  #485  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
If Kiko has a male child then it will be over for Masako. The pressure is off so why is everyone so hostile? You're right. She and Naruhito had no control over which sex their child was born as and that's why Akishino and Kiko gave it another go; to see if they could have a male child. What's the problem? Wouldn't this make Masako's life easier or would she simply find something else to whine about?
She's not whining, she's ill. Please don't tell me you don't know the difference.

Are you aware of the hostility that's been whipped up against her in Japan? Bloggers and websites and articles all over the place suggesting or demanding that she commit suicide or that Naruhito divorce her or step down as crown prince, and saying that Aiko is retarded and that Masako is insane? It's all very well to say "she should just ignore it," but it isn't that easy, partly becase there seems to be a strong feeling that this hostility isn't just spontaneous but has been orchestrated to put her under enough pressure to leave the royal family either by desertion or by suicide. It's easy to start something like that, but it isn't so easy to stop it once it's been started.

One of the other royalty websites had an infestation by an anti-Masako contingent a few months back, and you should have seen the venom they were spouting. For a person who's already in fragile health and being made to feel like a failure to her family and society - something that's taken rather seriously in Japan - that sort of thing coming from her compatriots must be very damaging. The one good thing in all this mess is that her husband has stood by his pledge to support her.
  #486  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:32 PM
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Can we pray that another little girl is going to be born tomorrow and then they will have to think again about changing the inheritance laws?
  #487  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
She's not whining, she's ill. Please don't tell me you don't know the difference.

Are you aware of the hostility that's been whipped up against her in Japan? Bloggers and websites and articles all over the place suggesting or demanding that she commit suicide or that Naruhito divorce her or step down as crown prince, and saying that Aiko is retarded and that Masako is insane? It's all very well to say "she should just ignore it," but it isn't that easy, partly becase there seems to be a strong feeling that this hostility isn't just spontaneous but has been orchestrated to put her under enough pressure to leave the royal family either by desertion or by suicide. It's easy to start something like that, but it isn't so easy to stop it once it's been started.

One of the other royalty websites had an infestation by an anti-Masako contingent a few months back, and you should have seen the venom they were spouting. For a person who's already in fragile health and being made to feel like a failure to her family and society - something that's taken rather seriously in Japan - that sort of thing coming from her compatriots must be very damaging. The one good thing in all this mess is that her husband has stood by his pledge to support her.
I don't condone the attempt to drive Masako to suicide or leave her husband and the imperial family. I do object to the venom in this thread toward the decision by Akishino and Kiko to try for another child. No one believes it just happened by accident but so what. They are trying for an heir to end the current succession crisis in the imperial family which they are members of.

And the treatment of women as second class citizens in royal circles is not just limited to the Japanese royal family. Doesn't Great Britain (shock, horror!) have a system of male primogeniture? A politician in England recently spoke out against changing the succession rules to favor the first born child regardless of sex saying it was not necessary because the heir (Charles), his heir (William) and the spare (Harry) were all males. Aren't aristocratic women there also prohibited from inheriting the vast estates of these families?

I don't say that the British people approve of this but that is the situation there and in many monarchies right now. Why just single out Japan?
  #488  
Old 09-05-2006, 12:57 PM
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People are singling out Japan here because this is the Japanese forum and there's a current situation that affects the succession there. If William's wife produces a girl as their firstborn, we'll be seeing similar calls in the British forum for and against a change in the current law.

The other difference is that on marriage, female Japanese royals are kicked out of the royal family altogether; Sayako Kuroda is in a very different situation from Princess Anne.

If people have a perception that the new Akishino baby was conceived to find favour with the conservatives running the IHA, they're entitled to say so. Considering the public calls by high-ranking IHA members for the Akishinos to produce another child, along with Prince Akishino's public rebuke of his brother, there's obviously a lot more going on here than just a family having a baby.
  #489  
Old 09-05-2006, 01:24 PM
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Japan's inheritance issue is a very complicated issue as I think the discussion on this thread reflects -- there are suspected sibling issues, mental health issues, issues of the role of religion and the emperor, issues of societal duty over individual duty, as Charlotte has pointed out, and the issue of a very conservative Imperial household to name a few. If there is "venom" against Akishino and Kiko it is probably because Akishino has brought this on himself by some of his "venomous" remarks about his brother which, IMO, indirectly "blame the victim"... Masako. Akishino and Kiko have not had near the pressure to produce an heir nor near the pressure in terms of level of responsibility to the Imperial Family, as has been placed on the other couple. In addition, Masako spent much more time outside Japan during her formative years than did Kiko, was educated quite differently and therefore experienced much more freedom which she then had to stifle. Masako married later and had started a career and all that came to a grinding halt when Naruhito chose her as his one and only. The girl has made enormous sacrifices, not all of which are of her choosing if you look at the demands placed upon her by Japanese society. I think it was rather shallow of Akishino to take it upon himself to respond to Naruhito's remarks. I simply view it as Akishino having some ego problems. Or could it have been to ingratiate himself to the inner circle once more after he was reported caught en route to an assignation with another woman in Thailand?
  #490  
Old 09-05-2006, 01:51 PM
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Maybe the reason Akishino spoke out against his brother is because he was concerned about the way the Imperial Family would be perceived around the world. And if his big ego led him to plan the birth of an heir he sure has been brilliant at it. While Naruhito was attending to his ill wife, his brother was planning a coup. While Masako was continuing to be ill, her sister-in-law was being impregnated with the possible heir to the throne. It sure came out of no where. The CP couple didn't see it coming. They were self-absorbed in their own problems. Apparently not speaking to your brother and being alienated from the family was not a good idea.
  #491  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
Akishino and Kiko have not had near the pressure to produce an heir nor near the pressure in terms of level of responsibility to the Imperial Family, as has been placed on the other couple.
I think that this is a really good point Emily. As many of the articles I read following Masako's miscarriage stated and in the years to follow, the stress of having a son was partly to blame for the miscarriage and then the lack of ability to conceive. As the second son, the pressure wasn't there since the assumption for many years by everyone was that Masako and Naruhito would have a son and that Akishino and Kiko could have a relatively quiet life with their daughters away from the limelight. Even if Akishino and Kiko were trying to have a third child for many years, the burden of conceiving wouldn't have been as high/strong for them as for Masako and Naruhito. Even the littlest amount of stress can make conception hard, and when you think that Masako had an entire country watching her belly, the stress and pressure must've been immense.

I know that I was never watching Kiko's belly to see if she would have a third child and when the announcement was made, it was surely a surprise for me. For all we know, Kiko could've been trying for several years now and without all the public pressure Masako has had.
  #492  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:03 PM
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It is currently 3am in Tokyo, Japan - I wonder what time the new royal baby will be born at? I wonder what time they'll make the announcement at.
  #493  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Maybe the reason Akishino spoke out against his brother is because he was concerned about the way the Imperial Family would be perceived around the world. And if his big ego led him to plan the birth of an heir he sure has been brilliant at it. While Naruhito was attending to his ill wife, his brother was planning a coup. While Masako was continuing to be ill, her sister-in-law was being impregnated with the possible heir to the throne. It sure came out of no where. The CP couple didn't see it coming. They were self-absorbed in their own problems. Apparently not speaking to your brother and being alienated from the family was not a good idea.
Maybe you should read the threads -- your arguments are simply off the mark and lack depth. Akishino was "brilliant" at planning this? Maybe the physicians were brilliant -- and Kiko was, uh, ?brilliant to agree to go through with it -- but Akishino? I don't think so. They were all told to have more kids - this didn't come out of no where. No one was blindsided by this pregnancy.
  #494  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:10 PM
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Maybe they'll do the c-section at 6, 7 or 8 in the morning. That's just a few hours away on U.S. eastern standard time. We should know by this evening. Perhaps 5-7pm tonight.
  #495  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
Maybe you should read the threads -- you're arguments are simply off the mark and lack depth. Akishino was "brilliant" at planning this? Maybe the physicians were brilliant -- and Kiko was, uh, ?brilliant to agree to go through with it -- but Akishino? I don't think so. They were all told to have more kids - this didn't come out of no where. No one was blindsided by this pregnancy.
I was simply responding to all the conspiracy theories about this conception and birth. Princess Kiko and Prince Akishino are expecting their third child. What is so terrible about it? If they have a son, what is so terrible about that? Poor, poor Masako will be left in peace. What's the problem?

And I'll bet that the CP couple were surprised by the pregnancy.
  #496  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:17 PM
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Laviollette - come to think of it...it'll probably be on the 11 o'clock news (I'm in Toronto) because then it would be 1 pm in Japan. They are 13 hrs ahead of us.
I'm so back and forth on this issue! I want it to be a girl so that they'll change the laws but at the same time I want it to be a boy so that the pressure is taken off of Masako. I mean, if its a girl she'll have to stress about the law change.
I guess we'll soon find out!
  #497  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
If Kiko has a male child then it will be over for Masako. The pressure is off so why is everyone so hostile? You're right. She and Naruhito had no control over which sex their child was born as and that's why Akishino and Kiko gave it another go; to see if they could have a male child. What's the problem? Wouldn't this make Masako's life easier or would she simply find something else to whine about?
Laviolette..to be quite honest...at least in my opinion...the only hostility is coming from you. While there are certainly members who have expressed the opinion that the succession laws should be changed, have heaped criticisms on the IHA and as a result have hoped for the birth of a girl. No one has wished harm on Kiko, Akishino or the baby. Instead you have demeaned Masako for her constant whining, her illness, her inability to have a male child and Naruhito for speaking out against the treatment of his wife. Isn't he supposed to stand up for her? Isn't that what marriage is about...a partnership?

Yes, there are tons of conspiracy theories about this birth. And yes, why shouldn't Kiko and Akishino have a third child? They are married and they can do what the please. But even you have to admit that the timing is just too suspicious. Continued harrasment and pressure on Masako to get pregnant, and all of sudden 12 years after the birth of her last child Kiko shows up pregnant. And this is not to say that this baby wouldn't or couldn't be the "late life" baby that other people have...but there are just too many concidences to ignore.
  #498  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenEna
Laviolette..to be quite honest...at least in my opinion...the only hostility is coming from you. While there are certainly members who have expressed the opinion that the succession laws should be changed, have heaped criticisms on the IHA and as a result have hoped for the birth of a girl. No one has wished harm on Kiko, Akishino or the baby. Instead you have demeaned Masako for her constant whining, her illness, her inability to have a male child and Naruhito for speaking out against the treatment of his wife. Isn't he supposed to stand up for her? Isn't that what marriage is about...a partnership?

Yes, there are tons of conspiracy theories about this birth. And yes, why shouldn't Kiko and Akishino have a third child? They are married and they can do what the please. But even you have to admit that the timing is just too suspicious. Continued harrasment and pressure on Masako to get pregnant, and all of sudden 12 years after the birth of her last child Kiko shows up pregnant. And this is not to say that this baby wouldn't or couldn't be the "late life" baby that other people have...but there are just too many concidences to ignore.
I have not demeaned Masako for being ill or not having a male child. But I do criticize her for what I perceive to be her whining. If she can't have another child than she can't have another child. That's not a big deal to me. But Kiko is having another child and I say good for her if she can do it. I also don't care if her pregnancy was an accident, planned or helped along with IVF. What difference does it make? That's not an issue as far as I'm concerned. This child is obviously a wanted child and Kiko glows with happiness.
  #499  
Old 09-05-2006, 02:50 PM
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Can we all stop arguing and just wait for the end of the day when we'll actually be able to make valid points? No use in arguing until we know whether there is a Prince or Princess.
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  #500  
Old 09-05-2006, 03:00 PM
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I don't understand why they are making such a big deal about a girl possible inheriting the throne. Other countries have changed their succession laws to allow women to rule. Why can't Japan? Gone are the days where women where considered inferior to men. (Unfortunately there are some people who still think that way) I know Princess Aiko is only four years old but if she's given the chance to grow up and with the proper training I think she will make a wonderful Empress of Japan. I want Princess Kiko's baby to be a girl so they can at least consider changing the succession law but something tells me she's going to have a boy. Besides I read somewhere a while ago that a poll showed that Japanese would favour a female ruler.
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