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  #381  
Old 08-19-2006, 04:29 AM
Jo of Palatine's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emily
And with ultrasound having been done to determine placenta previa, surely the Dr. knows.
It's not so easy. If you do ultrasound and you see the penis of the baby boy, then it's clear, it's a boy. But if you don't see his penis, it doesn't mean it's a girl because it could be that the sign of the baby's maleness is just hidden. That's why here in Germany, a lot of gynacologists offer the possibility to film the ultrasound results over hours till you get the movement that exposes the signs of the gender....
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  #382  
Old 08-19-2006, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlotte1
The Imperial Family members aren't totally helpless the crown prince couple recently appointed a new head of household who was a former diplomat with Masako's father.
I got the impression that it is mostly the emperor who is behind the situation. Masako was chosen by his son out of love, I bet the emperor would have preferred another daughter-in-law. I guess they tried to remodel her into the "typical" princess but failed while Masako realized that because of the way she is she is never going to be really accepted by her in-laws.

Especially no without delivering a boy! IMHO there is enough psychological material there to crash any family, not only the so strictly traditional Japanese Imperial one. And once Masako was ill, there was no way of her becoming mother again as the medication against depression does not allow for a pregnancy.
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  #383  
Old 08-19-2006, 05:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
I got the impression that it is mostly the emperor who is behind the situation. Masako was chosen by his son out of love, I bet the emperor would have preferred another daughter-in-law.
No, the Emperor is very much the non interferring father ( and Emperor). Plus Akihito himself went through a tough time when he wanted to marry Michiko. There was a very strong backlash to him wanting to marry a commoner. Led quite strongly by his own mother the Empress Nagako ( who then ended up as the interferring Mother in law from hell) Empress Nagako wanted Akihito to marry a woman from one of the disenfranchised noble families, there wasn't a specific one, the requirement was just that she was noble. Akihito held out and was allowed to marry Michiko, so he of all people would understand marrying for love and fighting to be allowed to marry that person. ( To this day it's cute to see Akihito and Michiko together as they're obviously still a close couple) Akihito in his birthday interview after Naruhito's outburst, said that wasn't aware of how difficult Masako was finding her situation as he separated the crown prince couple's household from that of the emperor's ( probably because of his own experience of interfering parents making life tough!) The 2 households were totally separate and run separately, they are physically separate too. Different parts of Tokyo. While it seems amazing that that Akihito had such little impact on the crown prince couple, this was as he wanted them to get on with things with no interference or input from him. They would meet for official events and family occasions and that was it.
  #384  
Old 08-19-2006, 12:52 PM
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Is there any English translation of that book? The "Princess Masako-Imprisoned Butterfly" one?
  #385  
Old 08-19-2006, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
It's not so easy. If you do ultrasound and you see the penis of the baby boy, then it's clear, it's a boy. But if you don't see his penis, it doesn't mean it's a girl because it could be that the sign of the baby's maleness is just hidden. That's why here in Germany, a lot of gynacologists offer the possibility to film the ultrasound results over hours till you get the movement that exposes the signs of the gender....
My friend is now in her 21st week of pregnancy. She and her husband both wanted to know the sex of their baby. She was told that if the sex of the baby couldn't be determined during the routine ultrasound of her 18th week, then she could do a second more advanced ultrasound, which is a 3D ultrasound. You have to pay a little bit more but you can see things more clearly. I don't know if such equipment is available in Japan, but if it were and someone wanted to know enough, it could be performed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toledo
On behalf of all men in the planet I apologize for all the trouble we are making because of our Y chromosome.
Very funny Toledo! If only the IHA were so humble about that Y chromosome!
  #386  
Old 08-20-2006, 01:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SyberiaWinx
Is there any English translation of that book? The "Princess Masako-Imprisoned Butterfly" one?
It was written in English for an English reading audience. It's called "Masako, the broken butterfly"
  #387  
Old 08-20-2006, 02:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
It's not so easy. If you do ultrasound and you see the penis of the baby boy, then it's clear, it's a boy. But if you don't see his penis, it doesn't mean it's a girl because it could be that the sign of the baby's maleness is just hidden. That's why here in Germany, a lot of gynacologists offer the possibility to film the ultrasound results over hours till you get the movement that exposes the signs of the gender....
There are other tests that can be done earlier in pregnancy than ultrasound which are considerably more accurate. There are also ways to pretty much ensure ahead of time that the baby is a boy (or girl, if you want a girl) - google on "gender selection". We don't know that those methods were resorted to, but considering that this pregnancy seemed to have been all about providing a male heir, it would be highly surprising if it were being left to chance.
  #388  
Old 08-20-2006, 03:10 AM
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well, i'm kinda hoping that the baby would be a boy so that kiko won't undergo the same kind of potential blackash that masako went through and that this whole succession issue would be settled.
  #389  
Old 08-20-2006, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elspeth
There are other tests that can be done earlier in pregnancy than ultrasound which are considerably more accurate. There are also ways to pretty much ensure ahead of time that the baby is a boy (or girl, if you want a girl) - google on "gender selection". We don't know that those methods were resorted to, but considering that this pregnancy seemed to have been all about providing a male heir, it would be highly surprising if it were being left to chance.
But aren't these methods much more risky for the mother and the child? Apart from IVF, that is?
  #390  
Old 08-20-2006, 12:42 PM
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Well, yes, they're more risky, but in this particular case they're playing for high stakes. I mean, there aren't all that many people who would agree that this pregnancy has nothing whatever to do with needing to produce a boy. The other thing is that because of Princess Kiko's age, the chances are that she'd be having some of these tests anyway to check that there were no congenital problems with the foetus, so doing the gender check at the same time wouldn't increase the risks, assuming they hadn't done pre-implantation gender selection where they knew what gender the child would be before the pregnancy ever got going.

I realise this is getting into the realms of speculation, but if it was that important to Akishino, Kiko, the Emperor and Empress, and the IHA for Kiko to have a son, then the risk to a given pregnancy wouldn't be that important because if she lost the baby or it was found that she was carrying a girl, they could start over. It doesn't seem as though this is one of those happy accidents which sometimes happen to women around 40 who thought their child-bearing years were over; the timing of this pregnancy suggests that it was planned to the nth degree.
  #391  
Old 08-24-2006, 12:34 PM
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I'm not accusing anyone and I'm not trying to be mean but I am tired of post after post of seeming venom toward the prospect of Kiko having a boy and some criticism of her and her husband for trying for a son and heir for their country's throne. While this pregnancy might not have happened naturally, neither did Masako's. She only managed to have one child six years into her marriage (with help) and she and Naruhito have not produced a son which is required under that country's constitution. I'm not criticising her or Naruhito but that's just the way it is. And though it may not be right for females to be excluded from the line of succession that's the way it is in Japan right now.

I know that everytime I bring up the exclusion of Catholics regarding the British Royal Family I am promptly smacked down and reminded of the British constitution, the Act of Settlement, 1701 and on and on. Why can't people just accept that Kiko might have a son which would make her the mother of the heir to her country's throne and be happy for her? She has carried out her duties in this very conservative royal family for 16 years and still looks radiant, beautiful and happy with her life and family. Why can't we just be happy for her and her family?
  #392  
Old 08-24-2006, 01:06 PM
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Well, if you look at the threads about the Catholic exclusion in the UK, you'll see several posters complaining about religious discrimination and advocating that the law be changed (seeing as I'm one of the posters who does this, I know it's happening!). It's just really sad, seeing these princesses reduced to this sort of practically forced breeding because of the combination of the male-only tradition in Japan and the severe pruning of the imperial family after the war.

I think the reason that people are critical of Prince Akishino is that he publicly opposed his brother when the Crown Prince tried to stand up for his wife. Then Akishino's wife falls pregnant after 11 years. It seems more like manoeuvring for favour at court than anything.
  #393  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:08 PM
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I don't have any beef with Kiko at this point. I would add, though, that you can't really compare her relaxed, happy look with Masako. Kiko hasn't been under the kind of pressure Masako has until very recently, when it became apparent both girls had almost passed childbearing age and there was no male successor. When/should Kiko have a boy she still will have it comparatively easy because Naruhito and Masako will have the "top job" until Kiko is quite old (most probably) and then it will be either a short reign for she and Akihito or the reign will just pass to their (perhaps) son. Also, Kiko hasn't had the 're-entry to Japan' issues that Charlotte has talked about on another thread -- so in many ways there just is no comparing the circumstances of the two women.
  #394  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:55 PM
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Kiko did spend some of her childhood in Europe, but she didn't spend nearly as long out of the country as Masako. She also went to Gakushuin University, as did her husband, which is where they met, while Masako received her education at Harvard and Naruhito at Tokyo University, which are both somewhat more academic and less geared toward the upper classes. The circumstances of her relationship with her future husband were a lot more normal, being students together, than what Masako and Naruhito went through.
  #395  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:07 PM
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I don't think anyone means to be unkind about Kiko's position in the royal family. There is really just no comparing her situation to Masako's. The only thing the two ladies have in common is the fact that both of their husbands had to buck tradition a bit to marry them. Kiko was not exposed to the tremendous pressure to produce a male heir so early on in her marriage. She had been able to travel (relatively) freely and enjoys a good relationship with the Emporer and Empress. I don't believe that she was summoned to the Emporer every month to declare the state of her menstrual cycle like Masako was.

I hope nothing but the best for Kiko and her child regardless of the sex. I too am a woman of advanced maternal age and can really sympathize with what they are going through. I am 37 and my husband and I are still trying for our first child. The things you have to put your body through for IVF are not pleasant, physically and emotionally taxing, have a relatively lower chance of succeeding the older you get and are accompanied by a increasing chance of birth defects and danger to the mother. In trying to provide a male heir to the throne, Kiko and Masako have both put their own lives at risk to do so. That is the unfortunate thing.
  #396  
Old 08-24-2006, 10:04 PM
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Well..the only think that we are able to do now is just TO WAIT. There is no much time ahead to know if the baby is a boy or a girl. I read here that the birth could be September 6 or 7. We are almost there. :w00t2: I'm so nervous!

Vanesa.
  #397  
Old 08-25-2006, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
I'm not accusing anyone and I'm not trying to be mean but I am tired of post after post of seeming venom toward the prospect of Kiko having a boy and some criticism of her and her husband for trying for a son and heir for their country's throne. While this pregnancy might not have happened naturally, neither did Masako's. She only managed to have one child six years into her marriage (with help) and she and Naruhito have not produced a son which is required under that country's constitution. I'm not criticising her or Naruhito but that's just the way it is. And though it may not be right for females to be excluded from the line of succession that's the way it is in Japan right now.

I know that everytime I bring up the exclusion of Catholics regarding the British Royal Family I am promptly smacked down and reminded of the British constitution, the Act of Settlement, 1701 and on and on. Why can't people just accept that Kiko might have a son which would make her the mother of the heir to her country's throne and be happy for her? She has carried out her duties in this very conservative royal family for 16 years and still looks radiant, beautiful and happy with her life and family. Why can't we just be happy for her and her family?
I only wanted you to know that I support the whole view of your message, Laviolette.

And I'm sure that Kiko and Masako are over all things, happy mothers, and that they doesn't hate each other as some yellow press tries so hard to us to believe. Hope both of them will be happy with their daughters or sons and their husbands.

Vanesa.
  #398  
Old 08-25-2006, 02:36 AM
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This is slightly off-topic, but I keep wondering...What kind of place do Masako and Kiko and their respective families live in? I keep picturing them both living in like palaces are mansions. Is this wrong or do they really?
  #399  
Old 08-25-2006, 01:07 PM
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Have a look at this thread:

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ghlight=palace
  #400  
Old 08-25-2006, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo of Palatine
But aren't these methods much more risky for the mother and the child? Apart from IVF, that is?
Some yes, some no. When I was born in the eighties, and even now, as my cousin is pregnant, a common test for women who are pregnant after about 35 years old get a test, I can't remember the name off the top of my head, of the amniotic fluids, the fluids that surround the baby in the womb. This test is done to detect birth defects such as Down's Syndrome, which is more common in older mothers. During the process of the tests to rule out those problems the doctors usually can tell whether the baby is male or female, because they are examining DNA. I would be very surprised if the Princess has not had this done, as per her age, and the potential role of her child, and so yes, I expect the doctors might have some access to that information. The test is not very risky at all.
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