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  #281  
Old 07-28-2006, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Parkman
But then if Masako had not been subjected to the huge stress and I strongly suspect subtle but very brutal abuse of which the Japanese are such past masters she might well have given birth to more than one child, in fact two or three. In which case this senario would never have need developed. Nor would it cast a lurid glow on what should be a happy event.
Interesting observation, and I think, it's, sadly, right on the money: if Masako hadn't been so monitored and confined by that household agency, she'd have been happier which would ve probably resulted in more kids, indeed. Again this whole royal life has been one incredible washout for Masako.

As fandesacs2003 already said, Masako's depression probably stems from the fact that she realizes full well this sacrifice she's made hasn't been worth it. Especially not now she's getting a public slap in the face with the pregnancy of her sis in law. Talk about public humiliation! Japan has a shame-based culture (no, I'm not being judgemental, ask any cultural anthropologist about Japan's culture and they'll confirm this), and poor Masako couldn't have been put to shame in a more public way. Shakespeare couldn't have dreamt this one up if he'd tried.
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  #282  
Old 07-28-2006, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
I always think of Sarah Ferguson on various talk shows after her divorce when she would talk about the "Grey Men" of the British royal court and how they watched your every move and had to approve anything and everything you did.
I remember this too, and I remember some comments coming out of the Diana camp on this as well. But I've never understood the source of power of the British and Japanese royal households. Why doesn't the royal family in each of these cases, well, fire the members of the royal household that step out of line? Who is the boss here, anyway?

The royal families have a lot of power. (They have, for instance, the power to embarrass themselves.) Why don't they exercise it? The only thing I can think of is that the royal households in each of these cases are doing the bidding of the queen/emperor, who are using the royal households to keep their own family members in line.
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  #283  
Old 07-28-2006, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princess olga
Interesting observation, and I think, it's, sadly, right on the money: if Masako hadn't been so monitored and confined by that household agency, she'd have been happier which would ve probably resulted in more kids, indeed. Again this whole royal life has been one incredible washout for Masako.

As fandesacs2003 already said, Masako's depression probably stems from the fact that she realizes full well this sacrifice she's made hasn't been worth it. Especially not now she's getting a public slap in the face with the pregnancy of her sis in law. Talk about public humiliation! Japan has a shame-based culture (no, I'm not being judgemental, ask any cultural anthropologist about Japan's culture and they'll confirm this), and poor Masako couldn't have been put to shame in a more public way. Shakespeare couldn't have dreamt this one up if he'd tried.
u are so right. the imperial household agency control almost all aspects of her life, what she wears, where she goes and so fourth. very similar to diana's treatment.:(

http://www.benhills.com/articles/articles/JPN39b.html
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  #284  
Old 07-28-2006, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
I remember this too, and I remember some comments coming out of the Diana camp on this as well. But I've never understood the source of power of the British and Japanese royal households. Why doesn't the royal family in each of these cases, well, fire the members of the royal household that step out of line? Who is the boss here, anyway?

The royal families have a lot of power. (They have, for instance, the power to embarrass themselves.) Why don't they exercise it? The only thing I can think of is that the royal households in each of these cases are doing the bidding of the queen/emperor, who are using the royal households to keep their own family members in line.
I never was able to figure that out either, about why if Sarah and Diana were so unhappy and feeling so stifled, and they surely complained to their husbands, why Andrew and Charles wouldn't have gone to the Queen and the Queen had the attitudes of the Grey Men adjusted or fired them.

I think in recent years we have seen the Queen make more decisions that override the feelings of the Grey Men in the British court. Supposedly when Diana died the Grey Men did not want the Queen to visit the memorial her followers had set up outside her home with all those flowers, candles, stuffed animals and the like. But she came back from Edinburgh and visited the memorial with the Duke of Edinburgh, and also spoke publicly about the loss of Diana. But if you think that such someone had to die for the Queen to override the Grey Men, then no disrespect meant to Masako and her stress, but that surely isn't enough for the Emperor to stand up against the Grey Men equivalent in Japan.

I do agree with the other sentiments expressed that when it's time for Aiko to become Empress, she will likely have 99% support of the Japanese people due to the generation gap. Maybe now when there exist very traditional views from the generation of the Emperor and Empress' generation still it would be difficult to bring forth change, but certainly in two or three decades from now, a born Empress will not faze anyone.
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  #285  
Old 07-28-2006, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fandesacs2003
Hello to everybody

Totally agree with you. Its a hapiness to have a baby and I hope that Princess Kiko and her baby will be OK, but this story is so disgusting for Princess Masako, but also for all women in Japan. It seems SOoooo that this pregnancy has been programmed, for the ONLY reason, to obtain a boy for this throne and ato throw Aiko away.
IMO, Masako, should have regretted millions of time to have give up to her carreer and have marry the Prince. I believe that he loves and supports her, but he is also "neutralised"

what a shame
i totally agree fandesacs.

firstly, i wanted to ask... is it official that it's a boy kiko is expecting? was it officially confirmed?

in that case, i really think (my opinion) that it was programmed, as fandesacs said. and it's a shame, after all that masako has been through.

a doubt on succesion: what would happen if in this case, the son of kiko was a boy? would that mean that akishino would be emperor and so will his son, or that after naruhito's empire, akishino's son's will follow?
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  #286  
Old 07-28-2006, 05:14 PM
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Carlota - to answer a couple of questions....
First, the gender of the baby has not been announced by the royal house. Elsewhere on this thread, you can read discussions on why people think it is probably a boy, though. Second, technically, even if the baby is a boy, Naruhito will reign as Emperor after his father is deceased, then the line would pass to Akishino and/or his son, probably depending on the age of the "theoretical" son.
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  #287  
Old 07-28-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria

I do agree with the other sentiments expressed that when it's time for Aiko to become Empress, she will likely have 99% support of the Japanese people due to the generation gap. Maybe now when there exist very traditional views from the generation of the Emperor and Empress' generation still it would be difficult to bring forth change, but certainly in two or three decades from now, a born Empress will not faze anyone.
In that sense, there's huge hope for a positive turnout, for Aiko that is.
Meanwhile, this must all be very distressing not only for Masako, but I'm realizing now, also for her husband, who has been courageous enough to defend his wife in public. Naruhito is for example said to be friends with Willem Alexander and Maxima, and I can't help but think that he must sometimes wish he and his wife would have something like the incredible support Alex and Maxima get from people like Beatrix.
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  #288  
Old 07-28-2006, 06:31 PM
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I agree. I think CP Naruhito has been very courageous during this entire thing.

I believe that the IHA has tried to ruin his marriage with Masako and perhaps it was his counter to leak the stories about how his wife had been subjected to IVF in an attempt to have a child and then speak out in defense of Masako and his family, I think also it was the IHA that tried to contrive some rumor about his beautiful baby daughter having developmental problems (please correct me if I am mistaken) and he countered that with those clever pictures showing how healthy and happy she was, and now this. Naruhito is a brave man and I admire his unwillingness to allow himself be shunted off (and his family destroyed) by that IHA institution. I hope that Princess Kiko and her child will be ok, but I also hope Naruhito can manage another setback somehow for that IHA again, because imo (which admittedly I am not completely informed on the inner workings of the Japanese Royal Family) the IHA seems relentless in their quest for a male heir. That's just my opinion.
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  #289  
Old 07-28-2006, 06:36 PM
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We are all waiting for the big birth announcement.

Question, when the little prince(ss) is born, do we get a new thread right away or continue on this one?
I predict if it's a boy we will have our hands fulls of speculation on what would happen to Crown Princess Masako and Aiko from that point on. I'm crossing my fingers for princess Kiko to have a girl. But if it's a boy, hold on to your seats everyone, we will all witness either history in the making or history in regression.
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  #290  
Old 07-28-2006, 06:40 PM
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Is there any published information about the people who work for the IHA? For example, we know what Mary's Lady in Waiting looks like and a little bit about her, just as we know a little bit about the woman who is Victoria of Sweden's mentor.

Is there any background information about members of the IHA? Perhaps that would help our understanding of these people and why they are so unopen to change.
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  #291  
Old 07-28-2006, 07:05 PM
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I have just been looking through different threads on the CP's family trying to find the posts by Charlotte (from Australia, I think) which address some of the history of the IHA. I might have the wrong person, but I think she wrote some very informative posts on this. Can anyone else help with this?
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  #292  
Old 07-28-2006, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by royaltywatcher
I remember this too, and I remember some comments coming out of the Diana camp on this as well. But I've never understood the source of power of the British and Japanese royal households. Why doesn't the royal family in each of these cases, well, fire the members of the royal household that step out of line? Who is the boss here, anyway?
The government. These "grey men" are basically civil servants, not minions of the royals. When the whole culture is slanted in a particular direction, firing individuals isn't going to make any difference because the replacement will be similar enough to not make a whole lot of difference.
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  #293  
Old 07-29-2006, 12:35 AM
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Japan's Princess Kiko Is Having A Boy
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004348478

Svjetlana Mlinarevic - All Headline News Contributor
London, UK (BANG) - Japan's Princess Kiko will reportedly give birth to a baby boy.
The royal, the wife of Prince Akishino, announced her pregnancy in February and speculation is rife that she will provide a male heir following the announcement the child will be delivered by Caesarean. Commentators believe the decision to opt for a Caesarean section is proof the baby will be a boy because they want to take extra care.


Regarding this article, I think it's hilarious that they speculate the baby is a boy solely because Kiko is going to have a C-section. I'm sure that regardless of what the baby is, boy or girl, the parents want to make sure both it and Kiko are safe and even if they are having a girl, you'd think they'd still have a C-section. Personally, I hope they have a boy, but that's just me. I'm a stickler for tradition and it scares me sometimes! This whole controversy reminds me of the situation in Russia during the 1900s when Nicholas II had four daughters, but no son. I remember reading that someone (it might have been Nicholas, but I can't remember) wanted an imperial ukase issued that would allow his eldest daughter Olga to succeed him. At any rate, this plan was abandoned when his wife had a son (albeit a hemophiliac one) but since the Romanov dynasty ended several years later, the whole thing is moot now.

I just hope that whatever Kiko has, the baby is healthy. It would probably kill the family (or the IHA) if it's a boy but he has some kind of hereditary illness. :(
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  #294  
Old 07-29-2006, 03:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Night Stalker
Personally I feel if Kiko's baby is indeed a boy it would lift such an enormous burden off of Aiko. I would love for Japan to have an empress but I get the distinct impression that the Japanese law makers are very conservative and not exactly happy over the idea of a female ruler They would all prefer a boy. If Aiko were made heiress they would have to change so many rules, create new protocol, her education would be carefully structured, her love life would be difficult. I don't think she'd ever get a chance to lead a really full life. She's end up like the princess in Roman Holiday. I think if she were to become the next empress her life would be so stifled. I have been getting this vibe from Japan's royal family that everything is so carefulyl structured and planned out that it almost feels there is no room to breathe. It is so pressured. Japan's royal family is not like the British or Swedish royal family.
I agree with you in some ways i want the baby to be a girl so that there is some sort of reform, on the other i think that it would probably be better for PMasako & Aiko if the baby is male - WHY? Like u said it would take the pressure of PM & PA would grow up to have a more 'normal' life.
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  #295  
Old 07-29-2006, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandria
I don't think it's as easy as this to incite change. The Chrysanthemum throne is embedded in hundreds of years, centuries even, of history and protocol. And even though it's 2006 such history and protocol can't be turned upside down (as in their eyes allowing Aiko to be heiress would mean) in just a few years, no matter what kind of emotional or psychological toll had been experienced by Michiko and Masako.

I always think of Sarah Ferguson on various talk shows after her divorce when she would talk about the "Grey Men" of the British royal court and how they watched your every move and had to approve anything and everything you did. If the British royal court, which is considerably more progressive in comparison to the Japanese court, had such a hard time with allowing Diana and Fergie some freedom and making them some allowances, then I can imagine how practically impossible it would be for any concessions to be made for Masako and for Aiko to be Empress one day by her own merits of being her father's first born.

I do think that the members of the Imperial family care about Masako and her ill-health, but at the same time I think they realize that the system is bigger than them and that there isn't much they can do for her. Her husband tried and I think that speaks volumes about the kind of man he is and how he's been willing to challenge the court much to the dismay of his father, but little (if any) change occured as a result of Naruhito's comments.

I admit that I don't know much about the imperial court and I hope that someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I suspect that Akihito does not have as much influence as some of his other counterparts in the running of his court or his duties. Margrethe of Denmark and Beatrix of the Netherlands for example are two monarchs whom I think have some influence in their courts that if they said that their daughter-in-laws should not be subjected to something, they wouldn't be. Beatrix for example was able to secure parking passes for her van Vollenhoven nephews, which is apparently very rare in Holland since parking spaces is so limited.

And on numerous occasions British prime ministers through the years have commented on how much they look up to Queen Elizabeth and how they seek out her advice because she's seen so much history and she knows the history of the country so well. I don't hear that often of Akihito. Even in Spain, despite the trepadations of the monarchy and auspicious start of Juan Carlos' reign, he is greatly admired and has a significant presence in his country that I don't sense from Akihito. And even in Spain, laws to change succession rights that would allow Leonor to become queen rather than a younger brother, have been slow to happen. Politicians on all fronts agree that allowing a younger brother to succeed Leonor is an archaic law but change has been slow to happen as it happens on multiple levels of governments and governments of course have their own agenda that they want to push through and Leonor being Queen isn't necessarily a priority for them. I imagine that in Japan this is a similar story.
You made some interesting points - the Royal Families lives (JAPAN) is it seems to me particularly restricted. I think that the IHA don't want reform & sadly they're are happy with the way things are. I wish that Pkiko gives birth to a healthy baby - no matter what the sex.
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  #296  
Old 07-29-2006, 10:57 PM
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I read here that if the baby is a boy, he could suffer from an hereditary disease...Which disease are you speaking about? I miss something in all this discussion?

Vanesa.
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  #297  
Old 07-31-2006, 03:17 PM
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Having just read a book about the Empress Elisabeth of Austria ("Sissi") and the fight between her and her dominant mother-in-law about the supervisation of the education of the Royal children I came to think about Kiko, Masako and the IHA... Here are my thoughts (mere speculation, of course - and I have to confess that I know next to nothing about the Japanese way of thinking - but as it happened in European Austria...)

If aiko in fact became the heir apparent of her father and thus the second-in-line after the Crown prince: would "mentally ill" Masako be allowed to be responsible for the upbringing of the heiress? Or would the emperor take the child away from her? Could this be the threat that

a) brought prince Akishino and his wife Kiko to the acceptance of a try to get a boy as heir? In order to help Naruhito and Masako against the IHA (which, as could be read in another thread, is "reigned" by the Prime Minister and the emperor via the IH council?). With Akishino as the father of a boy everything could stay as it is. Or Naruhito has a chance to gracefully give up his rights in favour of his brother and "keep his face" while giving his personal happiness a chance.

b) made prince Naruhito think about an exile in the Netherlands in order to save his family in case the child turns out to be a girl?After all, the Dutch are the people who have (due to their history with Japan) together with the British the most knowledge about Japanese traditions and customs. The prince of Orange is the father of two daughters himself, so understands Naruhito's situation. The idea of abdication is pretty normal in the Dutch RF. The father of Masako had any opportunity to request a private interview with the prince or the queen in Den Haag and broach the subject then privately.
Who would dare doing anything against the daughter of a judge at the International Court of Justice in Den Haag, when it comes to human rights? They can feel quite safe in the Netherlands - a country with a long history of taking in noble refugees.

Just an idea....
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  #298  
Old 08-01-2006, 09:55 AM
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The princess Kiko has participated in ceremony called "Chakutai no Gi" in order to "assure" safe birth of her child.


http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1114122006
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  #299  
Old 08-01-2006, 02:59 PM
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PRINCESS KIKO PRAYS FOR A SAFE DELIVERY

Pregnant Princess Kiko of Japan took part in a traditional ceremony on Tuesday to pray for the safe delivery of her unborn child.
http://www.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2006/08/01/kiko/

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  #300  
Old 08-02-2006, 12:15 AM
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I hope so, too. I wonder if the IHA is a bit worried and "remorseful" of what mother and child are in danger of..... assuming, it was a "programmed pregnancy" by the IHA, of course.
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