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  #241  
Old 07-20-2006, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
Sorry, but why would Crown Prince Naruhito have to adopt his nephew (if Kiko's child is indeed a boy)? Or give up the throne in favour of his brother?
If he and Crown Princess Masako will not have children in future and the succession reform will not be forwarded, his brother, Prince Akishino will just succeed him. And will be succeeded by his son, when time will come.
My remarks are strictly speculation. The way things stand now, adoption is not allowed. But there had been several news reports that the Diet was considering allowing Naruhito, as Emperor, to adopt an heir as long as the baby was of patrilineal imperial descent in lieu of allowing Aiko to reign. True, Akishino is next in line, and his son would be next in line after him. But formal education for a future emperor begins roughly at age 3. It is my opinion that, in light of present circumstances and uncertainty, the IHA will press the issue of a definite heir and force Naruhito to legally designate his nephew as his heir or step aside for his brother, in which case Akishino's son is the definite heir with no question. Either way the formal education is assured for Akishino's son. The IHA is already at war with Naruhito over his public remarks about how shabbily his wife has been treated. If he fails to have an heir I think the IHA will do whatever it takes to remove him, Masako and Aiko from the throne. Again this is only MHO.
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  #242  
Old 07-20-2006, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear
My remarks are strictly speculation. The way things stand now, adoption is not allowed. But there had been several news reports that the Diet was considering allowing Naruhito, as Emperor, to adopt an heir as long as the baby was of patrilineal imperial descent in lieu of allowing Aiko to reign. True, Akishino is next in line, and his son would be next in line after him. But formal education for a future emperor begins roughly at age 3. It is my opinion that, in light of present circumstances and uncertainty, the IHA will press the issue of a definite heir and force Naruhito to legally designate his nephew as his heir or step aside for his brother, in which case Akishino's son is the definite heir with no question. Either way the formal education is assured for Akishino's son. The IHA is already at war with Naruhito over his public remarks about how shabbily his wife has been treated. If he fails to have an heir I think the IHA will do whatever it takes to remove him, Masako and Aiko from the throne. Again this is only MHO.
I see your point now. The education factor may indeed be strong and adoption can be an option.
I have a question though. What will happen if the Crown Pince adopts a boy (let's say Akishino's and Kiko's possible son) and then he has his own son with his wife (Crown Princesss Masako can still deliver chldren, I belive, in spite of all problems and difficulties)? Who will be the heir? Since after adoption, the first boy will be legally the Crown Prince's son, will he be the heir as the elder one?
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  #243  
Old 07-20-2006, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon
What will happen if the Crown Pince adopts a boy (let's say Akishino's and Kiko's possible son) and then he has his own son with his wife (Crown Princesss Masako can still deliver chldren, I belive, in spite of all problems and difficulties)? Who will be the heir? Since after adoption, the first boy will be legally the Crown Prince's son, will he be the heir as the elder one?
Um...well...yes, I suppose, if there is no provision made for a blood son of Naruhito taking precedence. I think that it is unlikely to happen though.

What is sure, however, is that if Kiko's baby is the much hoped for boy, Akishino and Kiko will have brought tremendous honor to themselves and the Imperial couple. That will go a long way in their favor if it comes down to a fight for the throne.
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  #244  
Old 07-20-2006, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimebear
My remarks are strictly speculation.... True, Akishino is next in line, and his son would be next in line after him. But formal education for a future emperor begins roughly at age 3. It is my opinion that, in light of present circumstances and uncertainty, the IHA will press the issue of a definite heir and force Naruhito to legally designate his nephew as his heir or step aside for his brother, in which case Akishino's son is the definite heir with no question. Either way the formal education is assured for Akishino's son. The IHA is already at war with Naruhito over his public remarks about how shabbily his wife has been treated. If he fails to have an heir I think the IHA will do whatever it takes to remove him, Masako and Aiko from the throne. Again this is only MHO.
Hmmm..... Akishino is indeed 2nd in line, but he wasn't given the formal education meant for a future emperor bec. he wasn't the crown prince. So I don't see that as a problem with his son, if ever. I just don't know how far the IHA will go to isolate Naruhito and family. I don't want them to be out of the picture, and I'm sure most of the Japanese would be upset if Naruhito will be pushed out of the throne. Anyway, if the IHA is all about tradition - then getting rid of Naruhito, who was groomed to be heir from his birth, is going against it.
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  #245  
Old 07-20-2006, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monica17
Hmmm..... Akishino is indeed 2nd in line, but he wasn't given the formal education meant for a future emperor bec. he wasn't the crown prince.
Which is why I said that they may try to push Naruhito into adopting Akishino's son as his heir, skipping Akishino altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monica 17
I just don't know how far the IHA will go to isolate Naruhito and family.
These are the same people who do not even allow Masako to call her own parents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monica 17
I don't want them to be out of the picture, and I'm sure most of the Japanese would be upset if Naruhito will be pushed out of the throne.
If the IHA were so concerned about what the Japanese people want, they would have supported the Diet in passing the bill changing the succession laws already. Before Kiko's pregnancy, polls taken in Japan showed that over 85% of the Japanese citizens favored Aiko ascending the throne after her father.


Quote:
Originally Posted by monica 17
Anyway, if the IHA is all about tradition - then getting rid of Naruhito, who was groomed to be heir from his birth, is going against it.
True. But it is also against tradition for the IHA to divulge negative personal information about a member of the royal family, but they had no trouble announcing Masako's mental health difficulties to the press. I believe that, if this is something that will suit their idea of continuing the monarchy in Japan, the IHA will find a way around this.
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  #246  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
Because I want them to get rid of this Prussian Salic Law Succession.



They've had female monarchs in the past. Last one was Empress Go-Sakuramachi in the 1700s. They only barred women from the throne when they changed their system to match European ones. They used Prussia as a model I think.
Maybe I'm making a great mistake, but Salic Law is not Prussian. I've intended that there was French. Perhaps tjis is just for French Monarchy and some German ones comes both from Franc Kingdom.

Remember, for example, that Spain could have ruling Queens, but only after the Bourbons, who were from French roots. The first Bourbon king Felipe V, was himself a French. After this very known fact, there was only ruling Kings in Spain , with the exception of Isabel II, Fernando VII's daughter.

As for France, this country NEVER had ruling Queens.

Vanesa.
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  #247  
Old 07-20-2006, 10:12 PM
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Salic Law just means that that female cannot inherit.

Like Liechtenstein, they have Salic Law.

Jordan has Salic Law. And of course Japan.

Japan just used Prussia as a model when they reorganized their monarchical system. I read this somewhere.
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  #248  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:37 PM
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Salic law was not only about inheritance.
The Salic Law was used to govern the Salian Franks (in the 6th century), during the reign of Clovis I. Charlemagne used it as a basis for his own laws but in the 12th century the laws were changed.
In France, the Salic law was 'remembered' again, when King Louis X died, with only a daughter to succeed. His brother, future Philip V, remembered the Salic law, which indeed had a point that stated that any inheritance should be inherited by the eldest son, and in case of it's absence, eldest male relative.
Quote:
But of Salic land no portion of the inheritance shall come to a woman: but the whole inheritance of the land shall come to the male sex.
However in some parts of France Salic Law was not used. For example Eleonor of Aquitaine inherited Aquitaine (the vastest domain in France) after the death of her father. Also, thoug Louis X's daughter did not inherit the French throne, she did inherit the Crown of Navarra. Duchess Anne of Britanny inherited succeeded her father.
Also notable is the case of Hanover and Britain. The British and Hanoverian thrones separated after the death of King William IV of the UK and Hanover. Hanover practiced the Salic law and Britain did not, so King William's niece, Victoria ascended to the throne of GB and Ireland, while the throne of Hanover went to William's brother Ernst, Duke of Cumberland.
The Salic laws determined matters such as inheritance, crime, murder, and so forth.
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  #249  
Old 07-21-2006, 04:52 PM
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Thank you for more insight Avalon =)
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  #250  
Old 07-22-2006, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigheadshirmp
Congrats!!!!!

Now that Kiko is pregnant, not only the Japanese royal family is happy...the most happy people should be the IHA! Now that they can wish the baby will be a boy and that they can have a male heir in the future!

But.....i really do hope that the succession law be changed to first born regradless of sex....so we can see a Empress in the future!
I don't mean to be rude, but I think it is interesting to point out that in Japan, there is no such thing as a reigning empress. The term "emeror" (Japanese "Tenno") has no female counterpart. The term "empress" refers only to the consort empress of an emperor. This does not mean, however, that women have never reigned in Japan. Instead, there have been eight female emperors , which I love. It shows that the title is absolute, and blind to gender. After all, the divine right of the Yamato clan came through a woman goddess.
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  #251  
Old 07-22-2006, 12:07 AM
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...it is only since the Meiji era (mid nineteenth century) that women have been barred from the throne...something which I think was heavily influenced from outside influences.
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  #252  
Old 07-22-2006, 12:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahoogie
Yeah...but I do wish that Naruhito's children will inherit the throne someday..After all, Prince Naruhito is the future emperor..it would be more appropriate or fair if he will pass the throne to one of his children, his direct bloodline...and I would say that i am bias with this idea because I am fond of Prince Naruhito, Princess Masako, and Princess Aiko..They've been through hard times and I think it would be a great consolation or reward if Aiko will become Empress somdeday...and I believe that deep in their hearts, the Crown Prince and Princess would like their daughter or future children to have the throne someday...
There are so many issues tied up in the succession debate. Firstly, the Meiji era reforms, then compounded with the expulsion of the Shinnoke houses from the imperial family during the American occupation. (leave it to the world's pushiest democracy to screw up the world's oldest monarchy). I am never able to get over my anger at the way women are treated under the latest constitution. A woman born into the fushimi-no-miya must choose either to marry and become a commoner or never marry at all (since all imperial cousins are too closely related to marry). If the princess toshi never reigned due to the birth of a male cousin, I would be fine with that. But the idea that the child born to be crown princess may someday have to leave the imperial family entirely is insulting to the imperial house. In my opinion, the Japanese government should return to its roots and restore the status of the imperial family to its pre-Meiji state (minus the cloistering ).
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  #253  
Old 07-22-2006, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
Salic Law just means that that female cannot inherit.

Like Liechtenstein, they have Salic Law.

Jordan has Salic Law. And of course Japan.

Japan just used Prussia as a model when they reorganized their monarchical system. I read this somewhere.
Salic Law IS from Franc origine. And I was speaking about its roots, not about which country has it nowadays. It's possible that some German Kingdoms (that are from Franc origine too) also have this infamous Salic Law. Lietchtenstein could be considered as a German State. And of course, other countries forbids women to inherit thrones, but this is not always called "Salic Law". I don't doubt about the fact that Japan took it using Prussia as a model for reorganizing their monarchy. Prussia fascinated very much other monarchs of the time, for example, Nasser-es-Dinh Shah, of Perse, who visited the country in 1873 and found everything that Prussians would do, excellent to copy.

However, Avalon made excellents remarks to Salic Law not being used in all parts of France Kingdom before France political unification. They were priceless and more than true. When I wrote about Salic Law being used in France Kingdom, I was generalizating, and I was over all things, speaking about the unified France.

And I must said that I share Princess Chota opinions. Entirely. And I'm speaking about ALL the post she made in this thread. Go ahead, girl, I'm with you! :)

Vanesa.
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  #254  
Old 07-23-2006, 09:14 PM
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Thank you, Kimebear, for your insights. It's really hard to delve into the IHA's "position" - it's beyond me!

I share your sentiments, Prince of Chota. I'm not going into country-bashing here, but the USA shouldn't have interfered with Japan's monarchy. Not only with the succession, but also princesses stripped of their heritage! I wish their law will be revised to equal primogeniture and that imperial princesses can stay within the family.
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  #255  
Old 07-23-2006, 10:15 PM
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by monica17
I share your sentiments, Prince of Chota. I'm not going into country-bashing here, but the USA shouldn't have interfered with Japan's monarchy. Not only with the succession, but also princesses stripped of their heritage! I wish their law will be revised to equal primogeniture and that imperial princesses can stay within the family.
I believe that if Japan were to change these laws (one: allowing for princesses to retain their titles upon marriage, two: returning several of the shinnoke to princely status, and three: allowing women to succeed to the throne), Japan's monarchy would be in the best state it has been for almost a millenia (pre-shogunate). Furhtermore, I believe that the United States and international community would not oppose these changes (or care to, for that matter). I don't usually speak so harshly of my father's country (USA), but this is one matter for which I believe it deserves strong criticism.
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  #256  
Old 07-24-2006, 10:24 AM
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Personally I feel if Kiko's baby is indeed a boy it would lift such an enormous burden off of Aiko. I would love for Japan to have an empress but I get the distinct impression that the Japanese law makers are very conservative and not exactly happy over the idea of a female ruler They would all prefer a boy. If Aiko were made heiress they would have to change so many rules, create new protocol, her education would be carefully structured, her love life would be difficult. I don't think she'd ever get a chance to lead a really full life. She's end up like the princess in Roman Holiday. I think if she were to become the next empress her life would be so stifled. I have been getting this vibe from Japan's royal family that everything is so carefulyl structured and planned out that it almost feels there is no room to breathe. It is so pressured. Japan's royal family is not like the British or Swedish royal family.
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  #257  
Old 07-24-2006, 11:13 AM
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all these proposals should really be sent to IHA! bleagh. but i think whats most impt is that kiko gives birth to a healthy baby... now that she is having complications & stuff.

but seriously... japan shld seriously consider changing the constitution. i mean you never know... kiko's future son might turn out to be childless ? and sparking another succession reform! so yeah...
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  #258  
Old 07-24-2006, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanesa
Why do you want especially a girl? I hope Kiko could give birth to a healthy newborn, whichever his/her sex would be! I should like to see Kiko happy and in good health herself.

Vanesa.:)
They're hoping for a girl for Princess Kiko understandably because a lot here want the adorable Princess Aiko to be the first female Emperor of Japan after 300 years..
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  #259  
Old 07-24-2006, 02:38 PM
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I found this link on Royal News & Views, apparently Princess Kiko is experiencing complications.

http://members4.boardhost.com/CronePrincess/

Scroll down to post "Princess Kiko has pregnancy complications", about 3/4 down the page

:(
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  #260  
Old 07-24-2006, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Night Stalker
Personally I feel if Kiko's baby is indeed a boy it would lift such an enormous burden off of Aiko. I would love for Japan to have an empress but I get the distinct impression that the Japanese law makers are very conservative and not exactly happy over the idea of a female ruler They would all prefer a boy. If Aiko were made heiress they would have to change so many rules, create new protocol, her education would be carefully structured, her love life would be difficult. I don't think she'd ever get a chance to lead a really full life. She's end up like the princess in Roman Holiday. I think if she were to become the next empress her life would be so stifled. I have been getting this vibe from Japan's royal family that everything is so carefulyl structured and planned out that it almost feels there is no room to breathe. It is so pressured. Japan's royal family is not like the British or Swedish royal family.
I agree, but I would guess that the IHA could be quite 'liberal' if they wanted to be. I mean really, I think there has been speculation that this very pregnancy happened medically (IVF) and also I think some speculation that if the child would indeed be a boy, that it would have been because of some in vitro gender selection process. Again, I certainly do not know if any of that is true or not in any way, so I invite to be corrected. If those things would be true, that doesn't sound like the IHA is so conservative to me (at least in some instances).

I say let's just keep our fingers crossed for a healthy child, sound in both mind and body no matter what!
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