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  #221  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USRoyalist
I don't believe the IHA would have allowed IVF as concerned as they are with tradition. Besides, Akishino and Kiko are such a beautiful couple, I much prefer to contemplate them creating an heir in the traditional way!
I'm all in favor of women inheriting or accomplishing whatever they want, but throwing over a 1,500 old tradition is not something to be done lightly. As Churchill said, "When it is not necessary to change, it is necessary not to change."
It is always a good idea to have several eligible heirs for safety's sake. Monarchs have traditionally had large families for precisely this reason. Queen Charlotte (Mrs. George III) had fourteen children, Victoria had nine. This notion of reviving concubinage because modern Japanese women blanch at the idea of having more than two children does not bode well for the future of the Japanese nation.
In any event, I'm happy for the Family and the Nation.
Again, they've had ruling Empresses in the past. This "male-only" tradition didn't come to pass until Japan was influenced by Europe.

And IT IS necessary to change it. It wasn't necessary for them to change to Salic Law around the Meiji Restoration, but they did.
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  #222  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by foiegrass
Well said. Look, it is possible that the imperial family can move on without the CP couple. There's always Prince and Princess Akishino to take over. They are loyal to the Emperor, loyal to Japan and they know where their duties lie. the I am not saying that the CP couple can't do that, but then again, with Masako's illness, the show still has to go on. I do not think that they were forced into having this child as they already wanted to have a child earlier but the Emperor dissauded them from trying for another one out of courtesy for the CP couple.

In Asian societies, you just can't help it if males have more precedence over females. My mom told me how disappointed my paternal grandparents were when I turned out to be female. When females marry, they have to take the surnames of the male. Look at the salaries, generally, males get more than females. Look at Asian militaries, males get drafted, not females. I know everyone's talking about sex equality but admit it, there are things that males can do and females can't. Even Queen Silva said so, in an interview that she admitted that she and the King would rather Prince Carl Phillip acede to the Swedish throne rather than Victoria. In Britain, the Princess Royal was second in line, but was pushed back to fourth when her brothers were born. Look at Luxembourg, Liechtenstein & Thailand (to name afew), females are not even included in succession.
Please, don't lump all Asian cultures into one.

Also, during ancient times, Asian females enjoyed much more privileges than their European counterparts.
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  #223  
Old 09-07-2006, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Morphine
No she wouldn't be the first Empress, but she would be the first Empress to inherit the throne outright since the 1700s. Any other Empresses in history I believe, were acting as Regents until the male heir was old enough to take over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empress_Go-Sakuramachi
No, she didn't reign as regent... if she did, she would've had the title of a regent rather than "Tenno"
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  #224  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
I totally agree that female monarchs are just as good as male monarchs and my support for Akishino and Kiko do not reflect an opinion that males are better. But I have a problem with singling out Japan when many monarchies have these same rules of succession--involving gender and religion with a couple of recently married princesses having to convert to the religion represented by their respective royal families. Japan currently has a male-only succession. It has over a thousand years of history and that's hard to shake even if one does believe in equalizing the monarchy between males and females.

Btw, I happen to think that QEII, Margrethe II and Queen Beatrix are fantastic monarchs and I am excited about all the new little princesses in Europe who will become future heads of state but each country and society has to develop and advance at their own pace not everyone else's pace.
Who said I'm singling out Japan? I think many of the Royal Families that has Salic Law should change. Sometimes tradition shouldn't get in the way of what's right.

And again... this male-only thing wasn't Japan's tradition, they adapted it from Prussia.
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  #225  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
Who said I'm singling out Japan? I think many of the Royal Families that has Salic Law should change. Sometimes tradition shouldn't get in the way of what's right.

And again... this male-only thing wasn't Japan's tradition, they adapted it from Prussia.
I don't mean you specifically have singled out Japan but one look at the Japan threads and all you see is rage at the male-only succession and you don't see the same rage in threads of other monarchies.

And in Japan, many traditionalists and people who consider themselves modern, point out the 1,500 year male line even though there have been female Empresses because they never had children who succeeded them. Again, I agree that male-only and male preference laws should be changed but it doesn't mean it's going to happen when we all want them to.
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  #226  
Old 09-07-2006, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
I never said that Masako should be replaced by her husband because she hasn't had a son. My point is that Kiko has had a son. She has provided a male heir for the throne of Japan so that should take the pressure off Masako. So why the continued caustic comments about the baby being a boy. Now all of a sudden everyone is hoping Masako gets pregnant again and has a male child. Why when that will just make a depressed person more depressed? This is what you all have been complaining about isn't it? Is it because Princess Kiko is now the mother of the heir? Seems like there's some jealousy going on here, imho.
I never said it was you who thought that Masako should be replaced. That opinion comes from much more important people to the royal family. It was members of the IHA who have no-so-subtly passed along the opinion that Naruhito should divorce her and remarry to someone who will give him a son. It was a member of the imperial family who suggested that Naruhito take a concubine. How exactly would having a son make Masako more depressed? Is there some credible information that proves Masako suffered post partem depression after the birth of Aiko? I can't think of any other reason why giving birth to the son that everyone hoped for would depress her. I am certainly not jealous of the fact that Kiko is currently the mother of the heir. I take issue with the machinations that have been conducted to get a male heir, and that includes putting a woman of Kiko's age through a risky pregnancy. Sounds like the only jealousy going on here is from someone who intensely dislikes Masako and is now glad that Kiko has one-upped her.
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  #227  
Old 09-07-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
Please, don't lump all Asian cultures into one.

Also, during ancient times, Asian females enjoyed much more privileges than their European counterparts.
I am not lumping all Asian cultures into one. I have lived in Asia for all my life, stayed at many Asian cities and I generally know the idea of Asian culture. Most, if not ALL asian cultures are male donimated. In certain asian countries, males are allowed to take more than one wife!

It is true that males in Asia get more salary than females when it comes to income. Do females get drafted into Asian armed forces? No. Most of the top jobs (Prime Minister/President) are MALE.

During ancient times, Yes. the asian females are allowed to succeed, but generally, males are given precedence over females.. RIGHT?

Like what Laviotte mentioned... each country and society has to develop and advance at their own pace not everyone else's pace. There's a 1,500 year old tradition at stake here. Although certain monarchies have accepted full-lineal prignometure, we'll just have to wait and see.

Boys are definetly prefered in Asia, as they can carry on the family name.
Sure Aiko can be Empress one day, but the line will possibly go back to the male line with the birth of the Prince Akishino's son.
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  #228  
Old 09-07-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
How exactly would having a son make Masako more depressed? Is there some credible information that proves Masako suffered post partem depression after the birth of Aiko? I can't think of any other reason why giving birth to the son that everyone hoped for would depress her.
She has to get pregnant and carry the child to term before she can give birth to a boy or a girl for that matter and all you people have been screaming about is what a terrible thing it is for the IHA to force this mistreated, depressed woman to attempt to have another child in hopes of having a male heir.

Quote:
I am certainly not jealous of the fact that Kiko is currently the mother of the heir. I take issue with the machinations that have been conducted to get a male heir, and that includes putting a woman of Kiko's age through a risky pregnancy. Sounds like the only jealousy going on here is from someone who intensely dislikes Masako and is now glad that Kiko has one-upped her.
Women of Kiko's age are having children more often now. Maybe she wanted a third child. Maybe she was trying to provide an heir. So what. And it does sound like many members are jealous that Kiko has one-upped Masako or maybe I should point out that it is Akishino who has one-upped Naruhito. Their fans have had a rude awakening that the CP couple are not the be-all and end-all to the Japanese Imperial Family.
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  #229  
Old 09-07-2006, 12:57 PM
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Prince Akishino and Princess Mako visited Princess Kiko and the baby prince at around 5pm on Sept 7th, 2006 at Aiiku Hospital.
#1: NNN News


Princess Kiko made it to the current issue of Josei seven featuring the imperial birth.
image from josei7

The photo above is Kiko holding her eldest daughter Mako when they left the hospital back in 1991.
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  #230  
Old 09-07-2006, 01:11 PM
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I really don't think that anyone has one-upped anyone.
In retrospect the CPrince & Princess have had thier sufferings in not being able to conceive and unfortunate illness' & P Akishino and P Kiko have had to wait (I've read) for premission to conceive again when they may have really wanted to have other children at an earlier date. I think that all parties here have been respectful to one another - to the best of thier abilities. It seems to me that both Princess have put the prospect of bearing more children ahead of thier own health at one time or another. Although I do not agree with Japans succession laws this family, especially the women have been very courageous in doing this.

Could you imagine being in either of these people's shoes? In my opinion the last person you would want to hurt is a loved family member by having your wife bear the son that you can not have. Royal or not! Ouch!

It seems to me that this is just the way the cookie crumbled.....
It's nobody's fault & I highly doubt that any Royal family member had any malicious intent, after all to be crown prince could be a curse and not a blessing!
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  #231  
Old 09-07-2006, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
kimebear

She has to get pregnant and carry the child to term before she can give birth to a boy or a girl for that matter and all you people have been screaming about is what a terrible thing it is for the IHA to force this mistreated, depressed woman to attempt to have another child in hopes of having a male heir.
That is not what you originally said. Your original quote was:

"Now all of a sudden everyone is hoping Masako gets pregnant again and has a male child. Why when that will just make a depressed person more depressed?"

This statement says that Masako getting pregnant and having a male child would make her more depressed. To which I responded with two questions:

"How exactly would having a son make Masako more depressed? Is there some credible information that proves Masako suffered post partem depression after the birth of Aiko?" Which you didn't answer.

Unless you meant that everyone hoping that she gets pregnant again and has a male child would make her more depressed. Which I hope you didn't mean since the only people that she has to contend with is the Imperial family and the IHA, and as you have so frequently pointed out, they must be perfectly content now that Kiko has a son, right?

So what exactly did you mean?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
Women of Kiko's age are having children more often now. Maybe she wanted a third child. Maybe she was trying to provide an heir. So what. And it does sound like many members are jealous that Kiko has one-upped Masako or maybe I should point out that it is Akishino who has one-upped Naruhito. Their fans have had a rude awakening that the CP couple are not the be-all and end-all to the Japanese Imperial Family.
Again, you re-interpret my original quote which was:

"Sounds like the only jealousy going on here is from someone who intensely dislikes Masako and is now glad that Kiko has one-upped her".

My original meaning being that the jealousy is coming from the person that dislikes Masako so much, this same person being glad that Kiko has now one upped her. I never said anything about the members being jealous that Kiko has one-upped Masako. Feel free to say so yourself, but don't quote me and change the context of my words to say it.
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  #232  
Old 09-07-2006, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foiegrass
I am not lumping all Asian cultures into one. I have lived in Asia for all my life, stayed at many Asian cities and I generally know the idea of Asian culture. Most, if not ALL asian cultures are male donimated. In certain asian countries, males are allowed to take more than one wife!

It is true that males in Asia get more salary than females when it comes to income. Do females get drafted into Asian armed forces? No. Most of the top jobs (Prime Minister/President) are MALE.

During ancient times, Yes. the asian females are allowed to succeed, but generally, males are given precedence over females.. RIGHT?

Like what Laviotte mentioned... each country and society has to develop and advance at their own pace not everyone else's pace. There's a 1,500 year old tradition at stake here. Although certain monarchies have accepted full-lineal prignometure, we'll just have to wait and see.

Boys are definetly prefered in Asia, as they can carry on the family name.
Sure Aiko can be Empress one day, but the line will possibly go back to the male line with the birth of the Prince Akishino's son.
STOP LUMPING ALL ASIAN CULTURES INTO ONE.

Let's see, look at the Philippine's President... oh it's a WOMAN.

Again, as I said, this 1,500 year Japanese "tradition" you speak of that excludes women from the throne started in the 1800s! When Japan came in contact with Europe! So this "tradition" isn't really their tradition!
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  #233  
Old 09-07-2006, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laviollette
I don't mean you specifically have singled out Japan but one look at the Japan threads and all you see is rage at the male-only succession and you don't see the same rage in threads of other monarchies.

And in Japan, many traditionalists and people who consider themselves modern, point out the 1,500 year male line even though there have been female Empresses because they never had children who succeeded them. Again, I agree that male-only and male preference laws should be changed but it doesn't mean it's going to happen when we all want them to.
I've addressed this in my previous post. There have been Empresses that passed on the throne to their children! That's because they marry each other, both parents are of Imperial blood! This whole, "Father's side was be imperial" didn't came to be until the Meiji Restoration!
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  #234  
Old 09-07-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
STOP LUMPING ALL ASIAN CULTURES INTO ONE.

Let's see, look at the Philippine's President... oh it's a WOMAN.

Again, as I said, this 1,500 year Japanese "tradition" you speak of that excludes women from the throne started in the 1800s! When Japan came in contact with Europe! So this "tradition" isn't really their tradition!
I am not! asian cultures regarding male donimation are simliar to each other. and please, you are not reading it carefully. I said MOST.i did not generalize. if you look at Asean meetings, its only gloria arroyo that is the only woman around, with the exception of Megawati, the ex. indonesian president.

"While eight women have ruled as emperor over the centuries, the last taking the throne in 1762, they served mostly as placeholders until a suitable male could be found" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14705547/

Anyway, after reading this article, do you think there's a possibility that Aiko MIGHT become a placeholder empress until Prince Akishino's son comes of age and has children to carry on the line?
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  #235  
Old 09-07-2006, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by foiegrass
I am not! asian cultures regarding male donimation are simliar to each other. and please, you are not reading it carefully. I said MOST.i did not generalize. if you look at Asean meetings, its only gloria arroyo that is the only woman around, with the exception of Megawati, the ex. indonesian president.

"While eight women have ruled as emperor over the centuries, the last taking the throne in 1762, they served mostly as placeholders until a suitable male could be found" http://msnbc.msn.com/id/14705547/

Anyway, after reading this article, do you think there's a possibility that Aiko MIGHT become a placeholder empress until Prince Akishino's son comes of age and has children to carry on the line?
I know you said "most" but they way you talk, you just lump them all into one. And we're not sexist in the Philippines. We're perfectly fine with women as heads of anything. (state, government, household)

"Placeholders" is just a propaganda by the current sexist people in power. If they were "placeholders" or "regent" they would never have used the title of "Tenno". And if they were simply placeholders, they would never become "cloistered rulers" upon abdication, which is a lot higher than "Tenno" because of seniority.

Even male Tenno abdicated as soon as his desginated heir reach of age. This is just propaganda that they were place holders or even the paternal line thing is tradition. Those did not exist before the Meiji Restoration.
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  #236  
Old 09-07-2006, 04:46 PM
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This might be a stupid question, but what excactly is this IHA?
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  #237  
Old 09-07-2006, 04:57 PM
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The IHA is the Imperial Household Agency, which is the branch of the bureaucracy in charge of matters relating to the imperial family. If you look through some of the general threads, you'll find some more information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Household_Agency

By all accounts, they exert a degree of control over the Japanese royal family that's far greater than goes on in the European monarchies.
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  #238  
Old 09-07-2006, 05:16 PM
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Okay, thanks!
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  #239  
Old 09-07-2006, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrinceLorenzo
No, she didn't reign as regent... if she did, she would've had the title of a regent rather than "Tenno"

I was merely copying down what it said. I am not familiar with Japanese Imperial terminology. On the chart that lists all the Emperors/Empresses in Japanese history, she was listed as Regent.

I wouldn't just make it up.
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  #240  
Old 09-07-2006, 07:06 PM
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Latest news from Yomiuri
Princess Kiko began to brestfeed her newborn baby on Sept 7th. 2006.
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