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  #121  
Old 12-01-2017, 02:48 PM
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And a 15% cut will rob the family of all their livelihoods?!

The solution according to the prince is that he announces any visit 10 days in advance? Why hasn't he doing that before? Would have saved him a lot of trouble
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  #122  
Old 12-02-2017, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Prince Laurent's solicitor defended the prince in a 7-page long letter to the prime minister. He claims the issue harms the prince' s human rights:



From: Prince Laurent’s solicitor writes to the PM

Article in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...eached-pay-cut

Reactions have been acid, as was to be expected.
More articles about this

Belgium's Prince Laurent protests over fine - BBC News

Belgium's 'cursed prince' complains his human rights are being infringed by salary cut
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  #123  
Old 12-02-2017, 05:11 AM
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It is dangerous that the politicians are getting fed up with the royal family. No, not the separatists and the marxists, they are nothing new... But yesterday a respected mainstream politician as Karel de Gucht (Liberal Party), a former Minister of Defence, a former Minister of Foreign Affairs, a former member of the European Commission (sort of EU minister) wrote in a newspaper: "What would Belgium actually notice if they woke up and there was no Philippe and no Mathilde at the palace?"

The current Prime Minister, Charles Michel, is from the same political family as this Karel de Gucht. Also the Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte and the Luxembourgian Prime Minister Xavier Bettel belong to the same political family.

That such a prominent politician, an éminence grise of Belgian politics, openly dares to discuss this, is alarming. A taboo has fallen. And essentially all thanks to this useless clown, Prince Laurent. There are no complaints about his brother King Philippe and his sister Princess Astrid, who both run a faultless parcours so far. Prince Laurent is the rusty nail in the already rotten coffin of the Belgian monarchy.
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  #124  
Old 12-02-2017, 06:54 AM
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That's indeed a very unfortunate development brought about be Laurent's repeated unreasonable behavior. He has been in a complicated position in life but that's no excuse for biting the mouth that feeds him.

Any thoughts on how this can be solved/how the risk can be lowered?
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  #125  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:08 AM
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An under minister said yesterday that ' some people seem to have lost the north' while referring to the prince, meaning that he seems clueless. Another government source said: "it is clear what it is all about for him: money".

Laurent's behavior seems rather destructive. Perhaps a sign of his illness. But as often with destructive people they are not only harming themselves but also those around them. In this case the monarchy and his relatives.

The Laurent-situation is not going to solve itself. The king tried what he could but it must be difficult for him. His moves do not seem to be appreciated by his family, if the painful dynamics at Paola's birthday party are anything to go by.

I suppose the government needs to step in. It is not a priority for prime minister Michel to deal with this matter perhaps, but it needs to be dealt with nonetheless. I am not sure if putting even more red lines and restrictions will do the trick. He has shown little signs that he intends to stick to them. He seems to have little sense of self reflection and sees himself as a victim. Still, his own suggestion to disclose his meetings to the government ten days in advance does give an opening and a way out.

He has been a harming force for decades, enjoying to shock and hurt his uncle and aunt and his parents. He obviously has no or little loyalty to his elder brother either. His behavior has not improved over the years, it only became worse. If a new set of red lines do not do the trick, perhaps the family should consider to have him declared legally incapacitated. An awful step to take but perhaps a necessary one.

It is worth noting that the papers of Laurent's solicitor also addressed concerns about princess Claire not receiving a dotation now or after Laurent's death.

I do feel that denying him an income will create even more problems. He was raised in a way that he was not expected to work for a living. It will be impossible for him to provide his own income at this point in his life. I suppose the best thing may be for the family to set up a fund that provides a comparable income for the prince and his family and to stop the dotation. But I do not know if they have enough funds to do so.
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  #126  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:29 AM
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Prince Laurent is so tiresome ,behaving like a spoilt brat and perhaps if his healthy allowance was taken away he'd mend his ways.
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  #127  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:29 AM
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If only Prince Laurent has acknowledged, even if it was just for the bühne, that he indeed made a faux-pas and offers his excuses to the Government and promises to remain within the bandwith the rules, this would have been accepted and the Belgians would have gone to the order of the day, maybe with grinding teeth.

But now the Prince has hired a legal team and seven pages with a juridical defence has been published, he almost challenges the Belgian government to the Courts. His chances on success are reviewed as "he has some points" by the one to "he has no any position to win this" by the other.

What Prince Laurent seems to lose out of the eye is that the monarchy is not a logic thing. It is not logic that the daughter of Philipp von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha and of Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz becomes the next head of state because she is what she is: their first-born child.

Monarchy is no science. There is no logic behind it. It is an anomaly in a modern and democratic state. Yet the citizens and their politicians have no hurry to get rid of them: "Yes, it is an anomaly, but ach... there are so many anomalies, it is a historically grown phenomenon and we have got sort of attached to it".

What Prince Laurent does now is "juridicating" the monarchy: what are your rights, what are my rights, and where in the laws is this actually regulated? Even the European Convention on Human Rights is dragged-in here. But when the dot comes to the i, no any Belgian gets the allowance Prince Laurent gets. No any Belgian is appointed Senator for life. No any Belgian gets the VIP-treatment Prince Laurent gets. Only because he happens to be the Number Eleven (!) in the succession.

So what he is trying to achieve with a lawsuit against the State may very well slam in his face like a boomerang. It is like duel between someone with a musket against someone who has a bazooka ... The reaction of State Secretary Theo Franken says it all: "Pfff, that he files a complaint at Unia then." (Unia = an anti-discrimination agency).
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  #128  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:59 AM
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It seems that whatever happens next it will reflect bad on the monarchy and therefore king Philippe. The only thing the king can do is stand firmly behind any government action (which I assume he approves of) but I have a hard time to come up with any measure that would effectively solve the problem of Laurent indefintely.
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  #129  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:03 AM
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If Laurent homself doesn't want to carry the burden of being a royal prince any longer, can he just renounce his style and claims to the throne? In that way he can meet with whomever he wants as a private citizen... So no undue burdens on his social life anymore - although he would still be a huge risk to the monarchy as he cannot stop being the brother of the King and therefore, would be an easy and interesting target for people with dubious motives.
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  #130  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:09 AM
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Laurent’s lawyer insists that “in humiliating ways” the prince has been stopped all his life from getting a job, in a manner damaging to his “image and, dare I add, his health”.

“In this traditional view, a prince was not allowed to work (it would testify to ‘a desire for money’, a reproach that some people dare to repeat today, which is the world upside down!),” the lawyer writes.
I have no idea how King Baudouin viewed the desire of princes to find jobs, but Prince Laurent was 29 years old when King Albert II assumed the throne. I imagine Prince Lorenz and his two sons would not be employed at investment banks if King Albert II had reproached the princes for working.
Quote:
The law that states that Prince Laurent has to ask for permission to meet foreign officials is open to interpretation.

According to his solicitor, the government is interpreting the law so strictly that Laurent can’t enjoy a normal social life.

Speaking about the presence of the Prince at the embassy, his solicitor told VRT News that "It is something the Prince is allowed to do, as long as his actions don’t have any political consequences”.

"There has been good cooperation between Belgium and China for many years now and our King has been on a trade mission there several times. There are good ties between both countries, so a visit to the embassy has no political implications”.
This is the legislation that Prince Laurent's attorney claims the government is interpreting excessively strictly.

27 NOVEMBER 2013. - Wet met betrekking tot de dotaties en de vergoedingen die worden toegekend aan leden van de Koninklijke Familie alsook de transparantie van de financiering van de monarchie
27 NOVEMBRE 2013. - Loi concernant les dotations et les indemnités octroyées à des membres de la Famille royale ainsi que la transparence du financement de la monarchie
Quote:
Art. 11. De leden van de Koninklijke Familie die een in artikel 3 bedoelde dotatie genieten, houden zich aan de in hoofdstuk 4 bedoelde regels. Indien deze bepalingen niet worden nageleefd, kan de regering nadat ze de betrokkene heeft gehoord, aan de Kamer van volksvertegenwoordigers voorstellen om over te gaan tot een inhouding op de in artikel 3 bedoelde dotatie die hem of haar is toegekend.
[...]
Art. 17. Om rekening te houden met de eventuele politieke implicaties die reizen van de leden van de Koninklijke Familie in het buitenland kunnen hebben, wordt elk plan om in privéverband of openbaar verband te reizen buiten de Europese Economische Ruimte meegedeeld aan de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken.

Elke reis naar het buitenland die een politieke betekenis kan hebben, en met name indien deze contact met de hoge autoriteiten van de Staat in kwestie omvat, wordt meegedeeld aan de minister van Buitenlandse Zaken. De minister brengt binnen een termijn van acht dagen een advies uit over de opportuniteit van een dergelijke reis en, in voorkomend geval, over de voorwaarden waaronder de reis kan plaatsvinden. Deze reis kan in elk geval slechts plaatsvinden na eensluidend advies van de minister.

Art. 18. Op de contacten van de leden van de Koninklijke Familie in België met de autoriteiten van buitenlandse Staten, internationale organisaties of de vertegenwoordigers ervan zijn de in artikel 17 bepaalde regels van toepassing, tenzij het gaat om contacten die hun plaats kunnen hebben in het kader van vertegenwoordigingsactiviteiten.
As Article 17 states that members of the royal family have to seek permission from the foreign minister to leave the European Economic Area when it could create political consequences, I suppose Article 18 implies that unapproved meetings with foreign dignitaries would be allowed IF there were no danger of political implications. However, inasmuch as Prince Laurent was warned for his previous visits to Congo and Libya and meeting with the prime minister of Sri Lanka, he ought to have become aware that the government and king take a stricter interpretation of "political" than he does.
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  #131  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:10 AM
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He does not need to renounce anything at all. Just say no to the State income. And he is free to do what he wants. He is only the number eleven and there are plenty of princes, dukes, marquises, counts, barons, knights and jonkheren in Belgium who have to provide in their own lives.
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  #132  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:19 AM
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The visit to the anniversary of the Chinese People's Army is explosive. First of all he wore an uniform of the Navy. Neither the Admiralty nor the Defence Department were aware of a military representation (by Navy-officer Laurent van België/de Belgique/von Belgien). That the Chinese People's Army was instrumental in Mao's terror, in the crushing of students at TianAnMen Square, in oppressing the Tibetans, etc. was apparently no hindrance for Laurent, for playing the "human rights" record in his juke box. That man is a living advert for bringing down the monarchy.
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  #133  
Old 12-02-2017, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I have no idea how King Baudouin viewed the desire of princes to find jobs, but Prince Laurent was 29 years old when King Albert II assumed the throne. I imagine Prince Lorenz and his two sons would not be employed at investment banks if King Albert II had reproached the princes for working.
This is the legislation that Prince Laurent's attorney claims the government is interpreting excessively strictly.

27 NOVEMBER 2013. - Wet met betrekking tot de dotaties en de vergoedingen die worden toegekend aan leden van de Koninklijke Familie alsook de transparantie van de financiering van de monarchie
27 NOVEMBRE 2013. - Loi concernant les dotations et les indemnités octroyées à des membres de la Famille royale ainsi que la transparence du financement de la monarchie As Article 17 states that members of the royal family have to seek permission from the foreign minister to leave the European Economic Area when it could create political consequences, I suppose Article 18 implies that unapproved meetings with foreign dignitaries would be allowed IF there were no danger of political implications. However, inasmuch as Prince Laurent was warned for his previous visits to Congo and Libya and meeting with the prime minister of Sri Lanka, he ought to have become aware that the government and king take a stricter interpretation of "political" than he does.
Prince Laurent's lawyer's argument is that attending a social event at the Chinese embassy does nor qualify as "contacts with authorities of a foreign state" and, therefore, does not fall under Art. 18.
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  #134  
Old 12-02-2017, 09:26 AM
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Karel de Gucht in not popular. He was involved with Fortis, Congo and Kabila and the Jude Lobbies. He even said that your Prime Monister Peter Bakenende was a mixture of Harry Potter and a "bourgeois sans Charisme".
What he said about our King is really stupid. We need a Monarchy !
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  #135  
Old 12-02-2017, 09:31 AM
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Prince Laurent is victim of the tabloids. A member of the NVA was there too but not on the picture.
He is a black sheep since he is young. He was asked not to do that and he starts always again. I think now it is enough .
the late Prime Minister De Haene said he should not agree with King Albert II first ask as King : giving his Children Dotations.
In the newspaper this morning . There was no Controle concering the Royal dotations during 20 years.
What did our Royals with the too much we paid them ??
Since 2013 there is a law and each Royal (not the King) has to justify their Dotation to the First President of our Rekenhof/Cour des Comptes.
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  #136  
Old 12-02-2017, 11:05 AM
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If Laurent had just acted normal, do one engagement here and one engagement there, then he would gave had a royal income from the Belgian taxpayers until his death. Everyone has left him in peace. Like his sister Princess Astrid.

His "colleagues" Prince Constantijn (brother of WA), Prince Guillaume (brother of Henri), Infanta Elena (sister of Felipe), etc. can only DREAM to get a life long income from the state ! Let alone to be a Senator even ! Laurent is really gaga!
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  #137  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
He does not need to renounce anything at all. Just say no to the State income. And he is free to do what he wants. He is only the number eleven and there are plenty of princes, dukes, marquises, counts, barons, knights and jonkheren in Belgium who have to provide in their own lives.
As I said formerly I used to love him and his interest for animals but now he goes too far....You are perfectly right.... you cannot have the privilèges and not the duties !
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  #138  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
If Laurent had just acted normal, do one engagement here and one engagement there, then he would gave had a royal income from the Belgian taxpayers until his death. Everyone has left him in peace. Like his sister Princess Astrid.

His "colleagues" Prince Constantijn (brother of WA), Prince Guillaume (brother of Henri), Infanta Elena (sister of Felipe), etc. can only DREAM to get a life long income from the state ! Let alone to be a Senator even ! Laurent is really gaga!
I believe the King's adult children are no longer senators after the latest Senate reform in 2014.
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  #139  
Old 12-02-2017, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post

It is worth noting that the papers of Laurent's solicitor also addressed concerns about princess Claire not receiving a dotation now or after Laurent's death.
Is Princess Claire not capable of working and supporting her children then?

And I’m sorry, but there comes a time when a wife needs to put her foot down and set the rules if her husband is being irresponsible and endangering her livelihood and the well being of her children. However loyal she may be, this has gone way past Laurent being ‘’a little naughty’’ and she and possibly his parents should have done an intervention a long time ago to stop this self-destructive behaviour. If necessary by legal means, however embarrassing they probably would find it. Or are they separated in all but law?
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  #140  
Old 12-03-2017, 03:37 AM
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Astrid's husband works so why can't Claire? The fact is she or Laurent don't want her to work or don't think she needs to as they feel the state will always pick up the bill for their lifestyle. Didn't Laurent once complain his sister was less dependant on her allowance than he was on his?

IMO enough is enough, take away his allowance and his official duties, make it clear he is not an official representative of Belgium and let him make his own way in life.
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