Would the Lux. princes be allowed to marry a non-catholic

[gaggleofcrazypeople]

I doubt it because Henri was one of the first major royals to marry a real commoner.

[Marie_Annemy]

I think it is stupid if you have to change your faith because of your husband's religion. Crown princess Maxima of the Netherlands is still catholic but she has agreed to let her daughters grow up as protestants. I think that is the best thing you can do. Maxima did not give up her catholism, and we -the Dutch people- are fine with that.

[Kelly]

I don't think they would necessarily have to marry a catholic. Their wives would probably have to change to their religion or at least in the case of Prince Guillame since he is the hereditary grand duke. The others I don't think it would matter that much.

[HRH Mims]

LRF is catholic familly. So I think, that boys can marry non-catholic, but their wives will have to change religion. And, ofcourse husband of Princess Alexandra.

[PreDoc]

I am curious as to why a wife would have to convert, is that written into the constitution or are they somehow required by the Pope?

[LIELAC]

Originally Posted by PreDoc

I am curious as to why a wife would have to convert, is that written into the constitution or are they somehow required by the Pope?

It's probaly because (my understanding of why people would have to convert) is because both people "need" to be of the same faith in order to get married in the church. Usually you get married in the church of the bride's faith, and it probaly look bad on the Vatican if they have the leader of a catholic country married in a different church. Or it could be like many country the offical religion is what ever religion of the royal family is. Not to mention marriages tend to work better and last longer when the couple have same common fondation as each other.

[RussianHistoryBuff]

The Royal Family of the Grand Duchy should be able to marry a non-catholic person. Because of several reasons, but the most prominant reason would be because in every royal house throughout history, the divine right to rule [which includes modification of succession laws] lies with monarchy until they wish to estabolish a parliament. But, because the Grand Duchy has a parliament and a constitution,the Head of the Grand Ducal Family does not rule, and the succession laws become outdated because there is no reigning Royal Family of Luxembourg. But, the "Grand Ducal Family" is good for propiganda, political encouragement, and Nationalism.

[alelysafina]

I think that if they did want to marry a non-catholic, she/he would have to convert. Mainly because Luxembourg is about 90% catholic, and from my experience in living in a society where most of the people are catholic, if you're not married by the church you're not considered to be really married, even though you are married by the state and people will constantly ask you when you're gonna make it official. Plus if they wanted to be godparents to their friend/relatives children, and the child was gonna be baptized in the catholic faith, then they wouldn't be able to because they weren't married in the church.

[linneatherose]

Yes, I think that alelysafina is correct. If you are a Catholic, the Church expects your bride/groom to be a Catholic. A convert is fine for most people but I don't know if royalty is different. It is a process to convert to Catholicism. It isn't just a baptism- there are many classes, communion, confirmation... it is a lot of work, but worth it to marry your "Prince Charming, right??

[soCal girl]

I think that Prince Guillaume will have to marry a Catholic girl or at least a girl who is willing to convert to Catholicism but the other princes and Princess Alexandra might have a little bit more leeway in the matter. I don't think it would be a big problem if the girl was Baptist or Evangelical or Presbytarian and just converted to Catholicism because the underlying matter is pretty much the same. I do think if Guillaume fell in love with a Jewish or Muslim girl, it would pose a bigger problem. It would be a really big jump if they coverted to Catholicism. I do hope that the princes and Princess Alexandra are free to marry anyone they wish.

[Alexandria]

What does "transubstantiaton" mean?

[grim_lady]

Originally Posted by Alexandria

What does "transubstantiaton" mean?

I had to look this one up too. Here is the site that told me all about it.

[RubyPrincess168]

I think whomever the Princes decide to marry would probably be expected to convert to Catholicism if they weren't already Catholic. But how serious would the conversion be? Would they become zealous converts like the princesses who married the heirs to the throne of Russia? Or would they merely go throught the motions? I'm Lutheran (and have religous beliefs that extend beyond the boundries of the faith) and have several issues with Catholicism. I think if marrying the man I loved depended on me converting to his religion, I could go through the motions of the new religion, but my core beliefs wouldn't change.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by RubyPrincess168

I think whomever the Princes decide to marry would probably be expected to convert to Catholicism if they weren't already Catholic. But how serious would the conversion be? Would they become zealous converts like the princesses who married the heirs to the throne of Russia? Or would they merely go throught the motions? I'm Lutheran (and have religous beliefs that extend beyond the boundries of the faith) and have several issues with Catholicism. I think if marrying the man I loved depended on me converting to his religion, I could go through the motions of the new religion, but my core beliefs wouldn't change.

In today's churches I believe is a lot of understanding for people who can't really believe in all the details this faith requires. A conversion due to an old law for Royal marriages surely is seen with a lot of understanding and helf, for the person converting shows that she puts the interests of the Royal family, the monarchy and this church above her own personal faith. Thus I guess the priest won't be too harsh on the respective bride and even accept a reconversion in secret after the wedding.

Religion is, after all, a thing between you and the Lord.

[avrilo]

Well I´m a catholic, I went to a catholic school since kinder to prep school and to a catholic university. This is why I post here, cause I know a bit how it works

For us catholics it is possible to marry with a non catholic, as long as the ceremony is a catholic one. The teological aspect of it is a bit complex and if someone wants to know, you can PM.:)

The problem is that a man and a woman not married in a catholic ceremony, are living in sin and their children would be bastards to the eyes of the catholic people, no matter if they went to court house and have a paper. Also divorce doesnt exist in catholic church. Annulments are allowed but under scandalous terms, like you hubby turns out to be homosexual or have a contagious deadly disease and never told you about it.

As catholic, for marry a non catholic; you have to have a permision of the church and swear that you will raise your children into the catholic faith. And of course convince your fiancee to accept having a catholic ceremony.

What I dont know is their protocol and law.

In today's churches I believe is a lot of understanding for people who can't really believe in all the details this faith requires. A conversion due to an old law for Royal marriages surely is seen with a lot of understanding and helf, for the person converting shows that she puts the interests of the Royal family, the monarchy and this church above her own personal faith. Thus I guess the priest won't be too harsh on the respective bride and even accept a reconversion in secret after the wedding.

Religion is, after all, a thing between you and the Lord.

I disagree with this opinion. Faith is what is between you and the Lord. Talking about catholics; once you are a catholic, you are pretty much it, you cant stop being one, because you have to be bapthized to enter the catholic church. The catholics that convert into other churches, never really stop being catholics and can come back whenever they want to. I find it really low use a church like that just because you are marrying into a royal family.

So back to the princes, it is possible for them to marry a non catholic girl, so ther is hope for all of you! YAY! as long as you agree to what I said above. At least on the religous POV

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by avrilo

Well I´m a catholic, I went to a catholic school since kinder to prep school and to a catholic university. This is why I post here, cause I know a bit how it works

For us catholics it is possible to marry with a non catholic, as long as the ceremony is a catholic one. The teological aspect of it is a bit complex and if someone wants to know, you can PM.:)

The problem is that a man and a woman not married in a catholic ceremony, are living in sin and their children would be bastards to the eyes of the catholic people, no matter if they went to court house and have a paper. Also divorce doesnt exist in catholic church. Annulments are allowed but under scandalous terms, like you hubby turns out to be homosexual or have a contagious deadly disease and never told you about it.

That's not entirely true. My catholic mother and my protestant father weren't married in a catholic ceremony but as my father agreed to our catholic upbringing, it was okay with my mother's priest and my mother's family which includes some priests, two monks and a nun. There are a lot of annulment reasons which are accepted that have nothing to do with diseases or sexuality, it's enough eg that one partner in a childless marriage states that he married on knowing he never wants to have children, thus the marriage is not valid. There is the sacrament of marriage and if one partner enters the marriage without agreeing to this sacrament, the marriage can be annulled. It's often done if one partner works for the church and wants to continue doing that after a divorce. At least here in Germany, annulments are not so difficult to get.

As catholic, for marry a non catholic; you have to have a permision of the church and swear that you will raise your children into the catholic faith. And of course convince your fiancee to accept having a catholic ceremony disagree with this opinion. Faith is what is between you and the Lord. Talking about catholics; once you are a catholic, you are pretty much it, you cant stop being one, because you have to be bapthized to enter the catholic church. The catholics that convert into other churches, never really stop being catholics and can come back whenever they want to. I find it really low use a church like that just because you are marrying into a royal family.

So back to the princes, it is possible for them to marry a non catholic girl, so ther is hope for all of you! YAY! as long as you agree to what I said above. At least on the religous POV

As I said, it is possible to be married but not in a catholic ceremony and even be employed by the church.

As for leaving the church: the new pope Benedikt is known to have said that he prefers it if people who have doubts leave the church instead of trying to change it from the inside. He said that from the point of view of the minister who cares for the soul of his lambs it is entirely possible to see that the people who leave the church for whatever reasons can still be good people who are loved by God.

Here in Germany we have a lot of people who leave the church because they are forced to pay taxes by the state who are then given to the church. While the bishops say that these people cease to be catholics and have not right any longer to partake on the sacraments or mass, the pope explicitely told the bishops to give them the sacraments and allow them to communication if they wanted to do that. So I understand that as if he really is convinced that it's a personal thing between you and God.

As for converting brides who did that for their marriage: that's a very old tradition and you can find private chapels in some palaces where members of the family reconverted secretly after a time and were attended by the priest of their choice while officially nothing was said about the topic at all.

Eg Sweden: both queen Desideria and queen Josefina attended the protestant service in public while having a private catholic chapel in the palace. IIRC Catholic princess Elisabeth Luise of Bavaria only converted to protestant faith more than 10 years after her marriage to the Crown prince of Prussia and it's an open secret that she kept close contact with her former confessor, so it's not clear if she really converted or not. She even travelled with her mentally ill husband to Rome after his brother Wilhelm had taken over the regency and was received by the pope so some historians claim that she reconverted and her husband converted with her.

It may be that it happened more often in Germany, where since the reformation faith was more a political topic then a religious and thus a tolerance existed. But it's not a new thing that women converted in order to make dynastic marriages and IMHO it is pretty normal that some of them secretly returned to the faith of their youth if they could do so without endangering their family or realm.

[foiegrass]

I think that they should be able to marry non-catholics BUT they will most probably have to renouce their rights to the throne like the british act of settlement 1771

[lisamaria]

Originally Posted by foiegrass

I think that they should be able to marry non-catholics BUT they will most probably have to renouce their rights to the throne like the british act of settlement 1771

I'm really playing by the ear here, but I think in Luxembourg the church is separated from the state (it is in most Catholic countries; its effect on state politics comes through differently), and the religion of Guillaume's wife would thus have no stately meaning. After all, when Henri ascended to throne, he swore his oath before the parliament, and not in church. There was no mention of God anywhere. But they present themselves a religious, church-respecting people, so if the girl refused to convert Guillaume just might have to draw his own conclusions.

Unfortunately, I think it would rather be goodbye girl than goodbye crown

I find this rather interesting discussion as I aspire to become a priest myself. If the girl was a religious type, and her faith had a deeper meaning to her, surely she would be better off staying faithfull to her values and principles than giving them up for a cute guy?

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by lisamaria

I find this rather interesting discussion as I aspire to become a priest myself. If the girl was a religious type, and her faith had a deeper meaning to her, surely she would be better off staying faithfull to her values and principles than giving them up for a cute guy?

I guess it really is a very individual thing. If she could not accept to change her faith but his position required it it would be his job to think about the priorities in his life. CP Mary stated in her pre-wedding interviews that she and Frederick had talked about a situation where his mother would not accept Mary and that they had thought about him giving up his right. Which did not happen and which Mary would not have wanted in any case but the problem obviously was there and they thought about a solution both could live with.

I guess in case of religion it would be the same: the problem is there, both find their own point of view and then have to see if it can work out or not. But it's a very individual problem and not one we would get to know in case they decided to seperate, I'M sure. Maybe this was the problem with prince Joachim of Denmark and Mary Cavallier? We'll probably never know....

[firelight]

The question is not just one of non-Catholicism, but a question of the exact religion of the non-Catholic partner.

For instance, where I come from, a non-Muslim who wants to marry a Muslim MUST convert, otherwise you can't even get married legally. The children are also automatically Muslim. I believe this compulsory conversion on the part of the non-muslim spouse is not applicable in most other countries but it does appear to be the usual practice worldwide. So if Guillaume or one of his siblings married a Muslim, the issue of who converts will be a major one! There is a very real possibility the Muslim partner here would not be willing to accept a non-Muslim spouse.

It's very unlikely the hypothetical Muslim spouse could become Catholic either. For a Muslim to leave the religion means to commit the crime of apostasy. Very very serious and in some countries it's punishable by death. A high profile Muslim converting to another religion / even getting married in a church (without converting) could face serious death threats, it's been known to happen before. Furthermore, there is a lot of Islamophobia in the west so I think it may be almost impossible for the Lux. children, Guillaume especially, to marry a Muslim. Even if marriage took place, the religion of the offspring would be a major issue, personally and politically.

For a hypothetical spouse of certain other religions, things may be slightly easier. Hinduism and Buddhism, e.g., tend to be generally very accepting of other religions. Therefore a Hindu / Buddhist is more likely able and willing to convert / marry in a Church / raise the children as Catholics. There is also no question of the spouse of such a person having to convert into Hinduism or Buddhism, it's completely unnecessary, most people would never even think to ask. However, I don't know how accepting people in Luxembourg would be of a Hindu / Buddhist princess, church wedding or no church wedding. The current pope himself made that infamous comment about Buddhism being a form of spiritually self-indulgent eroticism.

And we haven't gotten to other religions, e.g. Wicca or a practitioner of other Earth-based religions (e.g. natural witchcraft, pagan, eclectic witchcraft). Can you imagine any of the Lux royals being married to a practising witch?

In this context, even a die-hard Protestant will seem like a saint!