Sex, names, godparents and Duchy of Victoria's and Daniel's second child

[xenobia]

Madeleine is the safest bet for a godparent. I can't see how or why the would exclude her.

I would also vote for Mathilde or Philippe, and Mette-Marit or Frederick, in a combo Mathilde/Frederick or Philippe/Mette-Marit. Maybe Daniels brother-in-law, Mikael Söderström.

 

[Rossina]

Is it possible to baptize prince Oscar with his cousin ( son/daughter of Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia) at the same ceremony specially as the age difference between the two royals will be only one month.

 

[JR76]

Is it possible to baptize prince Oscar with his cousin ( son/daughter of Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia) at the same ceremony specially as the age difference between the two royals will be only one month.

Yes its definitely a possibility. I've been to christenings where 4-5 kids was baptised after one and another.


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[Hans-Rickard]

Is it possible to baptize prince Oscar with his cousin ( son/daughter of Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia) at the same ceremony specially as the age difference between the two royals will be only one month.

It is possible and it would be a good way to contain the costs. But i don't think it will happen.
A problem would be that it would require 2 christening gowns. There is one that have been used by almost everyone from Victorias grandfather Prince Gustaf Adolf, his siblings and almost everyone from there down to Prince Nicolas.

There is an older christening gown kept in the Royal Armoury wich was worn by King Gustaf V and his brothers. Don't know if it's too old to use as it is probably around 160 years old.

 

[Lady Nimue]

Sorry not a fan of Oscar nor of Estelle. Having said that these two children have been born into a family with a great deal of love. That's all the beauty they will need.

Truer words, suztav, for sure!

 

[Madame Verseau]

@Rossina - the other reason there would not be a joint christening between Oscar and CP & Sofia's baby is their status. Oscar is the son of a future queen; Baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist is the child of the 4th in line to the throne. The level of grandeur for each baptism will be different.

 

[xenobia]

@Rossina - the other reason there would not be a joint christening between Oscar and CP & Sofia's baby is their status. Oscar is the son of a future queen; Baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist is the child of the 4th in line to the throne. The level of grandeur for each baptism will be different.

The only reason I can think of why you repetedly keep calling the next baby arrival "baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist", when you know very well that he/she will have no last name, is that your disapproval of Sofia always shines through in your posts, and you take every chance you can to show it, although subtle. Give it a break.

When it comes to the date of the christening, I think that Oscar will be baptized in may or early june. The other new prince/princess will probably wait until august/september. I see no reason for them to have a common baptism. Their parents have different friends and relatives. There is also just one baptism gown (if that's the correct english word), and I think that they would want to use it for both of the kings' grandchildren.

 

[quest]

The only reason I can think of why you repetedly keep calling the next baby arrival "baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist", when you know very well that he/she will have no last name, is that your disapproval of Sofia always shines through in your posts, and you take every chance you can to show it, although subtle. Give it a break.

When it comes to the date of the christening, I think that Oscar will be baptized in may or early june. The other new prince/princess will probably wait until august/september. I see no reason for them to have a common baptism. Their parents have different friends and relatives. There is also just one baptism gown (if that's the correct english word), and I think that they would want to use it for both of the kings' grandchildren.

I think unfortunately it is impossible to "Miss" Verseau forget and stop its attacks on Sofia and constantly remind status Victoria. I do not see the need to always want to put it forward. It is a fact that no doubt, here or in the royal family. Carl Philip and Madeleine are happy not to have this role. Here I think everyone recognizes that Victoria will be a good queen and will do a good job.I think it is unnecessary to always want to Victoria, his family, opposition, and his brother and sister and their children, as some here do not stop.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

@Rossina - the other reason there would not be a joint christening between Oscar and CP & Sofia's baby is their status. Oscar is the son of a future queen; Baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist is the child of the 4th in line to the throne. The level of grandeur for each baptism will be different.

Swedish law designates that Estelle Westling will -Deo Volente- become Queen of Sweden one day. So be it. That does not take away the unique position of a future son of Prince Carl Philip: he still will be the procreation of the agnatic, dynastical line of the Bernadottes, directly descending from all Kings of his House.

 

[sjetajiem]

@Rossina - the other reason there would not be a joint christening between Oscar and CP & Sofia's baby is their status. Oscar is the son of a future queen; Baby Bernadotte-Hellqvist is the child of the 4th in line to the throne. The level of grandeur for each baptism will be different.

If you want to keep your postings interesting stop repeting, repeting and repeting things that I think are not relevant to the family and to Sweden

 

[Madame Verseau]

I have referred to Oscar as Baby Bernadotte Westling before his birth because no one knew the sex of the child. Also, I have compared services of Madeleine's children to Estelle's and believe they (Oscar and CP's and Sofia's child) will be different because of location and status of parents. If I recall, the child who is wearing the christening gown has his/her name stitched in as the baby wears it. Who decides which baby wears the gown? (I'm guessing the king.) Each baby would have his (or her) ceremony, and I don't see the king wanting them lumped together.

 

[Hans-Rickard]

We gotta wait and see if there will be a double christening or not. It has never happened before in the senior swedish royal family so it has to be considered unlikely until it happens.

In my opinion it would be a good idea to contain the costs.

It doesn't have to be any differences at all in the christening ceremony for the 2 babies. Oscar is the son of the heir to the throne and the new baby will also be a son/daughter to an heir to the throne, though not the immediate heir. They have both the rights to use the Royal Palace Church and the silver font if the parents want to. Madeleines choice to not to had nothing to do with her rank in the family. And the ceremony itself is exactly the same in Sweden wether the baby is a Bernadotte or a Svensson.

Don't think the christening gown would be an issue. There are more than one gowns kept, among them the gown that was used by King Gustaf V and his 3 brothers. And it is actually not the gown but the cape wich was made to the christening of Princess Margaretha in 1934 wich has the names on it. Both babies can wear the cape during the same day. One can have a new cape in the Church and then they can switch to the reception.

 

[xenobia]

I have referred to Oscar as Baby Bernadotte Westling before his birth because no one knew the sex of the child. Also, I have compared services of Madeleine's children to Estelle's and believe they (Oscar and CP's and Sofia's child) will be different because of location and status of parents. If I recall, the child who is wearing the christening gown has his/her name stitched in as the baby wears it. Who decides which baby wears the gown? (I'm guessing the king.) Each baby would have his (or her) ceremony, and I don't see the king wanting them lumped together.

So the notion that you repeatedly let your disapproval of Sofia shine through in your posts about the whole Swedish royal family is just a notion?

Don't get me wrong here. I think it's perfectly fine to dislike a royal. You can't love everyone. I don't like them all either. But I try hard to stay away from forums/threads that deals with those that I don't like. There is no need for other readers to be exposed to my negativity, direct or subtle.

As a swede, I'm interested in the historical aspect of our swedish monarchy. I'm not too fond of children in general, but both prince Oscar and his future cousin have interesting places in history. This is especially true if Carl Philip and Sofia have a son, since those who think that the agnatic line to the throne follows Carl Philip and his male offspring. (No, I'm not one of them, but I still find it interesting).

Prince Oscar is also interesting in the historic aspect. He is the first first male child born to a heir(ess) of the throne that isn't going to bypass his elder sister.

Either way, I think that both children are very lucky. Not because they are princes and/or princesses, but because they are born into families with genuinely loving parents that will provide the best they can for them (not just financially). They also have many other family members around that will give them love and attention, no matter if they are third or fifth in line to the throne. And in the end of the day, that's really all that matters.

 

[Madame Verseau]

Agnatic line doesn't matter now. Birth order primogeniture is the rule of thumb, regardless of gender. That was established in 1980. I'm seeing the argument for the agnatic line as an dissatisfaction of the Riksdag's decision, a desire to go back to male primogeniture. Although it may not be the intention, but it tends to undermine Victoria as future sovereign and to an extent Estelle.

 

[Countessmeout]

Swedish law designates that Estelle Westling will -Deo Volente- become Queen of Sweden one day. So be it. That does not take away the unique position of a future son of Prince Carl Philip: he still will be the procreation of the agnatic, dynastical line of the Bernadottes, directly descending from all Kings of his House.

Unfortunate to those people who cling desperately as if life depended on it to the agnatic laws, it is no longer an Unique position. CP's child is fifth in line for the throne, and the only way that changes is to go further down. He doesn't even hold the honor of first grandson, Nicolas does. Estelle and Oscar descend just as much from the kings of Sweden, just through their mother.

Don't think the christening gown would be an issue. There are more than one gowns kept, among them the gown that was used by King Gustaf V and his 3 brothers. And it is actually not the gown but the cape wich was made to the christening of Princess Margaretha in 1934 wich has the names on it. Both babies can wear the cape during the same day. One can have a new cape in the Church and then they can switch to the reception.

I don't know if they would use the gown again. Its quite old and was likely put in to the armory to preserve it. Thinking of the British one that they had to make a replica of some years ago to preserve the original.

Yes, they could change the cape between ceremony and reception, but the baptism itself is the main event, the most important part. Its the part that matters. IMO there would be no question Oscar would get to wear it, he is the son of the Crown Princess, and is third in line. That would mean CP's child would be the only grandchild not baptized wearing it.

Honestly I think CP and Sofia will want separate. Even if a smaller scale to lower costs. Their child will be over shadowed by Oscar sadly due to their positions. CP's child deserves to have their own spotlight for one day and get to wear the baptismal gown/cloak of his/her cousins.

 

[Meraude]

Swedish law designates that Estelle Westling will -Deo Volente- become Queen of Sweden one day. So be it. That does not take away the unique position of a future son of Prince Carl Philip: he still will be the procreation of the agnatic, dynastical line of the Bernadottes, directly descending from all Kings of his House.

Isn't it time to stop propagating for the superiority of the male line??? Thankfully the Swedish Government and Riksdag changed the laws back in 1977, and no child of Carl Philip and his spouse will become monarchs in Sweden. (And without genetic testing, the only true line one can follow is that between a mother and her daughter.)

 

[Cris M]

Isn't it time to stop propagating for the superiority of the male line??? Thankfully the Swedish Government and Riksdag changed the laws back in 1977, and no child of Carl Philip and his spouse will become monarchs in Sweden. (And without genetic testing, the only true line one can follow is that between a mother and her daughter.)

Prince Carl Philip is still in line to succeed to the throne. Only a plane crash - God forbid - is needed for him to become King of Sweden one day.

Personally, I think it was unfair to strip him from his birthright, and that the change in the succession rules shouldn't have been retroactive. But there's no reason to cry over spilled milk, and I'm sure the Crown Princess will be an outstanding Queen for Sweden.

 

[Stefan]

tle.

As a swede, I'm interested in the historical aspect of our swedish monarchy. I'm not too fond of children in general, but both prince Oscar and his future cousin have interesting places in history. This is especially true if Carl Philip and Sofia have a son, since those who think that the agnatic line to the throne follows Carl Philip and his male offspring. (No, I'm not one of them, but I still find it interesting).

Prince Oscar is also interesting in the historic aspect. He is the first first male child born to a heir(ess) of the throne that isn't going to bypass his elder sister.

It is also the first time since the birth of Prince Vilhelm in 1884 that the Crown Prince has a scond child who is in line of succession. When Prince Sigvard was born in 1907 his father was not yet the Crown Prince.

 

[Stefan]

Prince Carl Philip is still in line to succeed to the throne. Only a plane crash - God forbid - is needed for him to become King of Sweden one day.

Don't know if it is also the case in Sweden but in Denmark Crown prince Frederik and Prince Christian don't fly in the same plane. And trhe same is done in the UK. Prince Charles and Prince William don't fly together.

 

[Cris M]

Don't know if it is also the case in Sweden but in Denmark Crown prince Frederik and Prince Christian don't fly in the same plane. And trhe same is done in the UK. Prince Charles and Prince William don't fly together.

True, but I think they only start to travel in different planes when the children are older. Didn't Prince George travel in the same plane as his parents when they went to Australia and New Zealand?

I suppose Princess Estelle still travels with her mother, though they will certainly travel in different planes in the future.

 

[Stefan]

True, but I think they only start to travel in different planes when the children are older. Didn't Prince George travel in the same plane as his parents when they went to Australia and New Zealand?

I think it was said when the Queen Mother had died that the Queen had to give special permsission that Charles William and Harry could fly back in the same plane.

 

[Cris M]

I think it was said when the Queen Mother had died that the Queen had to give special permsission that Charles William and Harry could fly back in the same plane.

Yes, but Princes William and Harry were in their late teens, I'm talking specifically about young children, like Prince George and Princess Estelle.

I don't know when Prince Christian started travelling separately from his father.

 

[jneugeba]

Swedish law designates that Estelle Westling will -Deo Volente- become Queen of Sweden one day. So be it. That does not take away the unique position of a future son of Prince Carl Philip: he still will be the procreation of the agnatic, dynastical line of the Bernadottes, directly descending from all Kings of his House.

You keep blabbing on about this, so I have a question for you. Who is the equivalent "super male" in the British Royal Family? Or the Dutch? Or the Danish? Or any other monarchy that has (God forbid!!!) had a woman serve as monarch? The truth is the line rests in the monarch and no place else. Prince Carl Philip will take his place along with all the other second children of a monarch who then become a sibling to a monarch. No part of the future line will remain with him besides what currently does.

 

[JR76]

You keep blabbing on about this, so I have a question for you. Who is the equivalent "super male" in the British Royal Family? Or the Dutch? Or the Danish? Or any other monarchy that has (God forbid!!!) had a woman serve as monarch? The truth is the line rests in the monarch and no place else. Prince Carl Philip will take his place along with all the other second children of a monarch who then become a sibling to a monarch. No part of the future line will remain with him besides what currently does.

Had UK followed the Salic law of male primogeniture the current Duke of Gloucester would've been king. He's also the senior male member of the House of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha.
Had male primogeniture not been changed by popular vote in Denmark in 1953 the current monarch would be Count Ingolf of Rosenborg.
The Netherlands would still have the same monarch since King Willem-Alexander is the senior descendant of the old House of Orange-Nassau of his generation.



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[Stefan]

Had UK followed the Salic law of male primogeniture the current Duke of Gloucester would've been king. He's also the senior male member of the House of Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha.




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But then Queen Victoria would never have become Queen and the present King would be Prince Ernst August of Hannover.

 

[Countessmeout]

Ridiculous concept of clinging to 'the pure line' But to answer:

Dutch: I don't know if even a purist could find one to exist. The last prince born before WA was his namesake,Queen Wilhemina's older half brother who was born in the 1850's. Queen Wilhemina's three brothers died without heirs before their father. William II (her grandfather) only had one son who had children, William III. William I had two sons who had children, but his other son Frederick had only had 2 sons and they both died in childhood. You'd have to go back to the Princes of Orange, before there was a king of the Netherlands,to determine if there was an unbroken male line to follow. Maybe someone who actually cares about this agnatic mentality would actually bother to go further, I don't.

British: have had more than one reigning queen, so question how far back would we need to go. The male line certainly been broken many times. The most recent would be simple enough. If agnatic, instead of Elizabeth being queen, the throne would have passed to her uncle Henry, Duke of Gloucester. When he died the current Duke of Gloucester with Alexander as Prince of Wales and his son Xan after him. But then again George V is descended from Victoria, so if Elizabeth shouldn't have been queen, either should have Victoria. If Victoria had not been queen, the throne would have followed the same path as the other family titles. The Hannoverian titles could not be inherited by a woman so were inherited instead by Victoria's Uncle Ernest Augustus. The throne would have passed the same. It would mean Prince Ernst August (husband of Caroline of Monaco) would be king of the UK,and his eldest son Prince Ernst August would be Prince of Wales. But then again the Hannoverians only came to the throne due to the female line. So honestly who knows?? better question who cares???

Denmark: The throne would have passed to Prince Knud of Denmark instead of his niece Margrethe. The problem is both Knud's sons lost their place in succession,only his daughter retained their titles. If their father had been king, it is quite possible the marriages would have been approved by their father to maintain their place in succession. Count Ignolff would have been king after his father, but he has no children. And his brother Christian only has daughters. You would have to back a generation,to the brothers of Christian X (father of Knud and Margrethe's father). The next brother was King Haakon of Norway. Meaning the direct male line would bring us to Haakon and Sverre Magnus.

 

[JR76]

But then Queen Victoria would never have become Queen and the present King would be Prince Ernst August of Hannover.

Whoops, you're right!!


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[Countessmeout]

But George I would never have been King either. George I came to the throne through not 1 but 2 females. He got his claim to the British throne by being a great-grandson of James I. But through James' daughter Elizabeth who was the mother of George's mother Sophia. And the Stewarts came to the throne through not 1 but 2 females as well (Mary queen of Scots and her paternal grandmother who was a sister of Henry VIII). After Edward VII died, the throne would never have passed to either sister or his father's sisters and their lines. But then again Henry VII got his claim through his mother, and it was strengthened by his wife's claim.

 

[Ish]

You keep blabbing on about this, so I have a question for you. Who is the equivalent "super male" in the British Royal Family? Or the Dutch? Or the Danish? Or any other monarchy that has (God forbid!!!) had a woman serve as monarch? The truth is the line rests in the monarch and no place else. Prince Carl Philip will take his place along with all the other second children of a monarch who then become a sibling to a monarch. No part of the future line will remain with him besides what currently does.

Britain - the Duke of Gloucester
Netherlands - There are no purely male line descendants of William I of the Netherlands
Denmark - By birth alone, Count Ignolf of Rosenborg. If you accept that he (and his brother) renounced their rights in order to marry, then the line goes to Harald V of Norway (providing his grandfather, Haakon VII didn't also renounce his rights when he became King of Norway). Removing him you have Constantine II of Greece (provided again that his grandfather, George I, didn't renounce his rights). Removing him it becomes very complicated as all other male descendants of Christian IX come from lines that have renounced their succession rights, and Christian came to the throne through more reasons than just blood.

 

[Countessmeout]

Britain - the Duke of Gloucester
Netherlands - There are no purely male line descendants of William I of the Netherlands
Denmark - By birth alone, Count Ignolf of Rosenborg. If you accept that he (and his brother) renounced their rights in order to marry, then the line goes to Harald V of Norway (providing his grandfather, Haakon VII didn't also renounce his rights when he became King of Norway). Removing him you have Constantine II of Greece (provided again that his grandfather, George I, didn't renounce his rights). Removing him it becomes very complicated as all other male descendants of Christian IX come from lines that have renounced their succession rights, and Christian came to the throne through more reasons than just blood.

But how would the Duke of Gloucester? He comes to the throne through Victoria? Victoria comes to the throne from George I who inherited it via his grandmother and mother?