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  #161  
Old 06-16-2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Vizier View Post
Sorry if this has been covered on one of the very long threads, but when did children born to a Princess start getting royal titles in Sweden? Traditionally even in most monarchies that allowed women to succeed to the throne children of a woman who was not the sovereign or married to him were not automatically titled. This is true in the UK and in Spain, for instance. George VI had to make Charles a Prince by decree, b/c he wouldn't inherit any title from his mother and wouldn't inherit a princely British title from his father. I think in Holland the child/ren of a princess were given titles by the queen, but it wasn't an automatic thing.
That's a great post, Vizier.

With all the respect to Victoria and her new born daughter, I don't understand how a baby can already be a Princess, and actually a Duchess. That's ridiculous, those who introduced such " a law" lack common sense...
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  #162  
Old 06-16-2012, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by monic View Post
That's a great post, Vizier.

With all the respect to Victoria and her new born daughter, I don't understand how a baby can already be a Princess, and actually a Duchess. That's ridiculous, those who introduced such " a law" lack common sense...
With all respect, this is one of the most ridiculous posts that I've seen here in a long time. With the exception of King Oscar I of Sweden (who became swedish prince at the age of 11) all sons born in equal marriages in Bernadotte dynasty received at birth the title Prince and were assigned a duchy by the King. Since 1980 Sweden has equal primogeniture, due to retroactive effect Victoria is the Crown Princess of Sweden, taking precedens over her younger brother who was Crown Prince for nearly 7 months. Victoria herself received the title of Princess at birth and was assigned her duchy on 9 January 1980 at the age of 2 years and 5 months. Both her siblings received the titles Prince/Princess and were assigned a duchy at birth. So it's only natural that the same thing happend with Estelle and will further continue with all her siblings.
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  #163  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Vizier View Post
Sorry if this has been covered on one of the very long threads, but when did children born to a Princess start getting royal titles in Sweden? Traditionally even in most monarchies that allowed women to succeed to the throne children of a woman who was not the sovereign or married to him were not automatically titled. This is true in the UK and in Spain, for instance. George VI had to make Charles a Prince by decree, b/c he wouldn't inherit any title from his mother and wouldn't inherit a princely British title from his father. I think in Holland the child/ren of a princess were given titles by the queen, but it wasn't an automatic thing.
I would like to attempt an explanation, with a little bit of lateral thinking: Estelle is the child of a princess but she is also the child of a prince.

Daniel was created prince of Sweden and Royal Highness at the time of the marriage; this was by decision of the King (and government). This is not automatic for the marriage of a princess. If i remember correctly for example when Madeleine was engaged to Jonas Bergstorm, the court said Jonas would have a courtesy title of Duke of Gastrikland (Madeleine's duchy), but he would not become a prince. In that case i would assume if the marriage had gone ahead, any children of that marriage would be Mr, Ms Bergstrom.

Of course i am no expert constitutionalist but this is a possible explanation; Estelle is the child of a princess and a prince; plus she is 2nd in line to the throne.


There is actually another somewhat similar case among European royal families: the children of Princess Astrid of Belgium. Since the new constitution in 1991 her children are prince(s) of Belgium. They use that (their mother's title) title as well as their father's archduke title. e.g. their oldest son is known as Amedeo, prince de Belgique, archiduc d'Autriche-Este.

Why Charles had to get a title by decree is interesting: Phillip was born a prince of Greece, he gave up that title, but was given a British princely title upon marriage. So why couldn't his child get that British title? Of course this was 60+ years ago... things have changed.
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  #164  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by altagrace View Post
There is actually another somewhat similar case among European royal families: the children of Princess Astrid of Belgium. Since the new constitution in 1991 her children are prince(s) of Belgium. They use that (their mother's title) title as well as their father's archduke title. e.g. their oldest son is known as Amedeo, prince de Belgique, archiduc d'Autriche-Este.
And then you have also Netherlands, where over 100 years ago Queen Wilhelmina, gave birth to Princess Juliana, later Crown Princess Juliana gave birth to Princesses Beatrix, Irene, Margriet & Maria Christina and later Crown Princess Beatrix gave birth to Princes Willem-Alexander, Johan Friso & Constantijn. Luxembourg, where Grand Duchess Charlotte gave birth to 6 princes & princesses.

With equal primogeniture introduced in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Netherlands & Luxembourg, this is a situation that will happen more often, especially considering that in 4 of those countries the heir to the heir is a girl.
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  #165  
Old 06-16-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by altagrace View Post
Why Charles had to get a title by decree is interesting: Phillip was born a prince of Greece, he gave up that title, but was given a British princely title upon marriage. So why couldn't his child get that British title? Of course this was 60+ years ago... things have changed.
Charles got the title by decree because he wasn't a child or male-line grandchild of the monarch.

The Prince received the titles Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, Baron Greenwich, with the Style of Royal Highness, (just) before his wedding, but he did not receive the title of Prince at that moment. Prince Phillip didn't get his british Princely title until the Queen issued a Letters Patent in 1957.

In case you have any questions about British titles, you can ask them in the following thread:
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  #166  
Old 06-16-2012, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by altagrace View Post
Daniel was created prince of Sweden and Royal Highness at the time of the marriage; this was by decision of the King (and government). This is not automatic for the marriage of a princess. If i remember correctly for example when Madeleine was engaged to Jonas Bergstorm, the court said Jonas would have a courtesy title of Duke of Gastrikland (Madeleine's duchy), but he would not become a prince. In that case i would assume if the marriage had gone ahead, any children of that marriage would be Mr, Ms Bergstrom.

Of course i am no expert constitutionalist but this is a possible explanation; Estelle is the child of a princess and a prince; plus she is 2nd in line to the throne..
It's not because Daniel is a prince that made Estelle a princess, it's because Victoria is a princess, but most of all it was the the king who decided that Estelle was to have the titles of princess and duchess. It will be the same when Madeleine and Carl Philip will have children, the king will decide what, if any, titles the children will have. It's not certain that Carl Philip's children automatically will get the title HRH prince(ess) of Sweden and Madelene's would be Herr/Fröken XX (the title Ms. doesn't exist in Sweden), the king can decide that all his grandchildren of his two younger children will be HRH prince(ess) of Sweden and/or duke/duchess of XX or Herr/Fröken XX. He could also decide that the children would have the title prince(ess) Bernadotte (similar to how the children of the Dutch princess Margriet have the title prince of Orange-Nassau) in order to avoid criticism of treating the children of a son differently from the children of a daughter. The Swedish government have no say at all in the matter of what titles members of the Swedish royal family will have, it's up to the monarch to decide that.
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  #167  
Old 06-16-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Iva View Post
With all respect, this is one of the most ridiculous posts that I've seen here in a long time. With the exception of King Oscar I of Sweden (who became swedish prince at the age of 11) all sons born in equal marriages in Bernadotte dynasty received at birth the title Prince and were assigned a duchy by the King. Since 1980 Sweden has equal primogeniture, due to retroactive effect Victoria is the Crown Princess of Sweden, taking precedens over her younger brother who was Crown Prince for nearly 7 months. Victoria herself received the title of Princess at birth and was assigned her duchy on 9 January 1980 at the age of 2 years and 5 months. Both her siblings received the titles Prince/Princess and were assigned a duchy at birth. So it's only natural that the same thing happend with Estelle and will further continue with all her siblings.
Thank you for sharing your point of view as well as explicit explanation. I'd better not state my personal opinions in this thread anymore and keep them for myself.
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  #168  
Old 06-16-2012, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by monic
Thank you for sharing your point of view as well as explicit explanation. I'd better not state my personal opinions in this thread anymore and keep them for myself.
It was only ridiculous because every baby born into her position would have the title of Princess from birth. She's a future Queen. What would you have her called?
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  #169  
Old 06-16-2012, 07:03 PM
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Thank you for sharing your point of view as well as explicit explanation. I'd better not state my personal opinions in this thread anymore and keep them for myself.
If you are going to imply that a decision lacks common sense just because you don't understand it you will have to accept that your "opinion" will get harsh words. Educate yourself about royal traditions, customs and culture and if you still think that some traditions lacks common sense then perhaps decide if a royal discusson board is for you.
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  #170  
Old 06-26-2012, 09:42 PM
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I just thought I'd jump in here to say that I think that Estelle is a particularly beautiful baby, and the photos of her with her parents are just exquisite; their love for the baby just radiates from them.
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  #171  
Old 06-30-2012, 07:42 PM
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Is there any possibility of a new photo of Estelle being released in summer?

(PS.: since I'm a new member, I don't know exactly where to ask this, I hope I posted in the right place!)
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  #172  
Old 07-01-2012, 01:50 AM
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Is there any possibility of a new photo of Estelle being released in summer?
I would guess there will be new photos of Estelle being released at crown princess Victoria's birthday on July 14th.
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  #173  
Old 07-14-2012, 07:31 AM
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Estelle's christening gift - Prinsessan Estelles promenad (Princess Estelle's walk/path) has been revealed. It leds from the sports arena of Borghom to the Solliden Palace.
Estelles dopgåva - en egen väg | Kvällsposten
Google translation
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  #174  
Old 07-15-2012, 05:53 AM
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Does anyone know the colour of Pss Estelle's eyes?

From the christening photos her eyes looked perhaps blue and from the photos.yesterday(14th July-her mother's 35th birthday celebrations-Solliden)her eyes looked perhaps brown.

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  #175  
Old 07-15-2012, 06:13 AM
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From the photos of Victoria´s birthday, I would say they have become darker. But that´s normal, most babies have blue eyes when they are born. But the real colour shows at their first birthday, I heard.

BTW with Victoria having dark brown eyes it would almost be impossible to have a baby with blue eyes...
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  #176  
Old 07-15-2012, 09:18 AM
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BTW with Victoria having dark brown eyes it would almost be impossible to have a baby with blue eyes...
Not necessarily, CP Mary has got brown eyes but all of her four children have got their father, CP Frederik's clear blue eyes
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  #177  
Old 07-15-2012, 12:13 PM
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Here are some pictures - the first one is a keeper - and the second one shows the three generations of monarchs -

Princess Estelle of Sweden

Princess Estelle, CP Victoria, King Carl Gustav

Princess Estelle, CP Victoria, Prince Daniel, King Carl Gustav

Quote:
Originally Posted by grevinnan View Post
you will have to accept that your "opinion" will get harsh words
Not at all. No one who posts (anywhere, anytime) should have to 'expect' - let alone actually endure - 'harsh words' on anyone's say-so - simply because that someone decides it is 'warranted'. Your reasoning is the reasoning of every abuser - you should be aware of that. I am far from saying you are an abuser - only that you should be aware that abusers give the rationale that the abused's behavior was the cause of their abuse (not their own choice on how to react). It's a slippery slope.

On the Internet particularly the only text that should be used is text that is free of any thing close to being ad hominem. For the rest we must assume the best rather than the worst.

Just saying, so that the poster who is getting a bit roughed up knows that it is not the way things are generally done here except by a few occasionally. Monic, don't let the experience stop you from posting, please.
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  #178  
Old 07-15-2012, 03:14 PM
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BTW with Victoria having dark brown eyes it would almost be impossible to have a baby with blue eyes...
dont underestimate genes, both of my parents and grandparents have brown eyes and my brother has blue eyes...he got them after my great-grandfather who had clear blue eyes.
on the other side, my adoptive aunt has blue eyes and so is her husband, their eldest daughter got blue eyes but the youngest got brown eyes, weird right? parents with blue and a daughter with brown

Prince Felipe has blue eyes and Princess Letizia has green eyes, yet Infanta Sofia has brown eyes (she had green as a baby, but now that shes older they turned darker)

Estelle had blue eyes, but it seems that they got darker, guess we will have to wait a bit longer to see better close up pics.
Princess Victoria might have brown eyes, but in her genetic network, she also carries the blue gene, because her father is blue eyed. im sure that at least one of Victoria and Daniel's children will have blue eyes, look at the King and Queen, the first 2 kids brown-eyed and Madeleine blue-eyed!
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  #179  
Old 07-15-2012, 06:47 PM
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From the photos of Victoria´s birthday, I would say they have become darker. But that´s normal, most babies have blue eyes when they are born. But the real colour shows at their first birthday, I heard.

BTW with Victoria having dark brown eyes it would almost be impossible to have a baby with blue eyes...
My parents both have dark brown eyes and my brother has light blue eyes. Inherited from our grandfather. So if Estelle has at least one grandparent with blue eyes or perhaps a great-grandparent with blue eyes, it is entirely possible she may end up with beautiful blue eyes. Also, I think it has recently been discovered that eye colour no longer comes from just one pair of genes.

Regardless of eye colour, her personality is first-class! Those little expressions she makes. She's just so not interested in all the fuss, I love it
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  #180  
Old 07-15-2012, 09:51 PM
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Regardless of eye colour, her personality is first-class! Those little expressions she makes. She's just so not interested in all the fuss, I love it
I love her facial expressions as well. She's so serious, it's precious .
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