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  #301  
Old 05-20-2010, 02:57 PM
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According to Expressen, both king Carl Gustaf and Olle Westling are giving a speech at the wedding dinner:
Pappornas tal till Victoria och Daniel - Bröllopet - Allt om kronprinsessan Victorias och Daniels bröllop | Expressen
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30 dagar kvar till vigseln! | Posh24.se
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  #302  
Old 05-20-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincess5 View Post
The King is handing over his daugher, who was fully his for 32 years. Now he's giving her to her husband.
This is what the church (and so many other Swedish people) react to... That a father is giving his daughter to another man
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  #303  
Old 05-20-2010, 07:12 PM
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That makes it sound like he's handing over a set of china. A father is a daughter's security and support from her infancy until her adulthood. To consider the act of his escorting her down the isle to her husband to be, and a new life, as his handing over property is overreacting and rather silly. She is leaving the confines of her family to start one of her own, and to have the head of her family there to support her at that joyful time is not something to get all up in the air about. If this is what Victoria wants, then I think those opposing for supposedly "modern feminist" reasons should simply allow her to decide what she wants for her wedding. I mean isn't that being rather two faced of the Clergy? Demanding that she show she's equal to Daniel and then telling her she can't make her own choices about her own wedding?
  #304  
Old 05-20-2010, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rop81 View Post
This is what the church (and so many other Swedish people) react to... That a father is giving his daughter to another man
The father is escorting his daughter, a single woman, to the altar and she leaves together with her husband as a couple. She is not "given" away, she is being escorted. Women can be escorted by other family members if their father is not able or no longer living, a brother or even her mom.
  #305  
Old 05-20-2010, 10:41 PM
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ruthieviews

I am amazed at the amount of discussions about how CP Victoria will walk down the aisle and with whom. It is her wedding and it is Daniel's wedding. It is their decision. I don't care if she comes down the aisle doing cartwheels, if that is what they truly want. We should all back off and let them make this decision based on their wishes.
  #306  
Old 05-21-2010, 01:14 AM
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To be fair, ruthieviews, I doubt they'll be consulting TRF for opinions. I think it's okay to speculate about what might happen during the wedding -- we've all got to do something in the waiting period before June 19!
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  #307  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PetraHel View Post
I am very surprised by the Swedish tradition, that a bride isn´t escorted down the aisle by her father. I have never heard about this. Actually I thought it is common everywhere. However, if it is their tradition, then they should do like they are used to. But to understand the fact, that a bride is walked down the aisle by her father, like some display of gender discrimination, is a silliness, to put it mildly. The father acts there like her support and representative of her family, not an owner of his daughter. Grooms (at least in my country) go with their mums, and no one thinks they are their mothers´ property.
In Sweden we never had this tradition of the father - as a support or representative of the brides family ("owner")- to walk the bride into the church... Here the wedding is a common act based of a common decision between the woman and the man who are getting married (not their familys)- and therefore they walk together into the church! And that was the case even in those days women were minors until they were 21 years and did not have the pomission to vote in the elections and everything else... and as far as I know its been the tradition at least as long as Sweden been a christian country... from the years between 800-900 (after Chist of course )...

And if we go back and take a look at the service books of Church of Sweden, there is no such thing as give the bride away from Laurentsius Petri´s 1571 until 2010...(and same thing in the other churches in Sweden, but they are of course younger ) . Until 1521 Sweden was a chatolic country so I dont have info from that time... But I find it not too likely that they changed the tradition of marriage in the reformation, when Sweden became a Lutheran country...

So this is why many Swedes are upset and don´t want their crown princess to be hadled over by her father....
And if you ask me I feel sorry for those grooms standing alone in the church and everybody are turning their heads FROM him to look at the bride and her old father (father in law) coming down the aisle... Its such a joy to walk that walk together as sign of a common decision and a beginning of a life together. So I definitly dont want to change theat tradition! (and since I am a pastor of one of the churches in Sweden I can actively contribute to keep the old Swedish tradition)
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  #308  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:24 AM
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I do believe there are strong arguments onwirher side, but at the end of the day, it is for Victoria and Daniel to decide - whilst they have duties, it is their wedding!
  #309  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruthieviews View Post
I am amazed at the amount of discussions about how CP Victoria will walk down the aisle and with whom. It is her wedding and it is Daniel's wedding. It is their decision. I don't care if she comes down the aisle doing cartwheels, if that is what they truly want. We should all back off and let them make this decision based on their wishes.
LOL
I agree. I don't really care about that either. I hope for her sake she gets her wedding as she wants it to be but I'm just filled up with everything else.
If this is what they both want then let them.
  #310  
Old 05-21-2010, 10:39 AM
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Prince Joachim and Princess Marie will apparently not attend, as Joachim has to stay as regent in Denmark.
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  #311  
Old 05-21-2010, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lumutqueen View Post
Prince Joachim and Princess Marie will apparently not attend, as Joachim has to stay as regent in Denmark.
oh, that is sad news! i thought since the danish and swedish families were close that we would see them all there. besides, marie never attended a royal wedding. it's a shame. i believe that everyone in the dutch royal family attended the wedding of the danish couple? i wonder who was left as a regent... maybe it can be benedikte?
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  #312  
Old 05-21-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlota View Post
oh, that is sad news! i thought since the danish and swedish families were close that we would see them all there. besides, marie never attended a royal wedding. it's a shame. i believe that everyone in the dutch royal family attended the wedding of the danish couple? i wonder who was left as a regent... maybe it can be benedikte?
I'm not sure why you said Benedikte was left as regent when The Dutch came to Denmark.

Btw the list you posted has been known for a long while.
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  #313  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:03 PM
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Well I think it's a shame to walk down the aisle together, the bride and groom. It's so much more wonderful to have the father escort her. I hope Victoria gets what she wants. I love to see the King escort her.
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  #314  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincess5 View Post
Well I think it's a shame to walk down the aisle together, the bride and groom. It's so much more wonderful to have the father escort her. I hope Victoria gets what she wants. I love to see the King escort her.
Well, on any other day I'd agree. However, am I correct in saying that on her ascention to the throne she will be head of the Church? If so she needs to be seen to support the Church, not create division.

Sorry, but it's because she is who she is and if the people of Sweden expect her to uphold their traditions then she needs to be listening. It seems that even the secular people of Sweden are getting up in arms and, to be honest, the Monarchy doesn't need the wedding of the heir to the throne to be a cause of contention.

However, I sometimes wonder if we are all getting angst ridden for nothing as the whole topic may be merely deflecting the eye from something else possibly even more contentious.
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  #315  
Old 05-21-2010, 03:54 PM
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I don't think she will be head of there church.
Not like QEII is head of the church in the UK.
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  #316  
Old 05-21-2010, 04:04 PM
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the swedish church is seperated from the state, so Victoria will not be head of the church
  #317  
Old 05-21-2010, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
In Sweden we never had this tradition of the father - as a support or representative of the brides family ("owner")- to walk the bride into the church... Here the wedding is a common act based of a common decision between the woman and the man who are getting married (not their familys)- and therefore they walk together into the church! And that was the case even in those days women were minors until they were 21 years and did not have the pomission to vote in the elections and everything else... and as far as I know its been the tradition at least as long as Sweden been a christian country... from the years between 800-900 (after Chist of course )...

And if we go back and take a look at the service books of Church of Sweden, there is no such thing as give the bride away from Laurentsius Petri´s 1571 until 2010...(and same thing in the other churches in Sweden, but they are of course younger ) . Until 1521 Sweden was a chatolic country so I dont have info from that time... But I find it not too likely that they changed the tradition of marriage in the reformation, when Sweden became a Lutheran country...

So this is why many Swedes are upset and don´t want their crown princess to be hadled over by her father....
And if you ask me I feel sorry for those grooms standing alone in the church and everybody are turning their heads FROM him to look at the bride and her old father (father in law) coming down the aisle... Its such a joy to walk that walk together as sign of a common decision and a beginning of a life together. So I definitly dont want to change theat tradition! (and since I am a pastor of one of the churches in Sweden I can actively contribute to keep the old Swedish tradition)
Thanks for a great post really explaining the reasons of the debate.
  #318  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:12 PM
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It is indeed a shame that H.K.H Prince Joachim and H.K.H. Marie cannot attend the Swedish Royal Wedding. It appears that all of the other Scandinavian Royal Families will attend. Isn't there someone else who could be regent? How about Princess Benedikte? Are there any other Danish royals who could do this? Since Denmark is so close to Sweden, it would not be difficult for one or more of the royals to return auickly in case of a crisis. Prince Joachim and Marie are such a beautiful couple. Marie is usually the most beautifully dressed of the group. She often upstages H.K.H Mary. Is that perhaps the reason she has been pulled from the original invitation list and replaced by another minor royal in the Danish attending group? Just wondering.
  #319  
Old 05-21-2010, 06:18 PM
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She hasn't been replaced on any list, she is still there. IMO she doesn't often upstage Mary, Marie often looks like a hollywood starlet or as if she is wearing a nighty. Her day clothes aren't much better.
Joachim has obviously decided that he will stay in Denmark on behalf of the Danish Royals.
We don't know who will attend until the day.
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  #320  
Old 05-21-2010, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria View Post
In Sweden we never had this tradition of the father - as a support or representative of the brides family ("owner")- to walk the bride into the church... Here the wedding is a common act based of a common decision between the woman and the man who are getting married (not their familys)- and therefore they walk together into the church! And that was the case even in those days women were minors until they were 21 years and did not have the pomission to vote in the elections and everything else... and as far as I know its been the tradition at least as long as Sweden been a christian country... from the years between 800-900 (after Chist of course )...

And if we go back and take a look at the service books of Church of Sweden, there is no such thing as give the bride away from Laurentsius Petri´s 1571 until 2010...(and same thing in the other churches in Sweden, but they are of course younger ) . Until 1521 Sweden was a chatolic country so I dont have info from that time... But I find it not too likely that they changed the tradition of marriage in the reformation, when Sweden became a Lutheran country...

So this is why many Swedes are upset and don´t want their crown princess to be hadled over by her father....
And if you ask me I feel sorry for those grooms standing alone in the church and everybody are turning their heads FROM him to look at the bride and her old father (father in law) coming down the aisle... Its such a joy to walk that walk together as sign of a common decision and a beginning of a life together. So I definitly dont want to change theat tradition! (and since I am a pastor of one of the churches in Sweden I can actively contribute to keep the old Swedish tradition)
During the catholic periode, Sweden had the bride give away tradition and this tradition did change slowly after the reformation. But it is mostly due to changes in the Law of Marrige when Sweden introduced the Ban of Forced Marriage some during 17th century naivly thinking that would change anything as women were still minors. Walking together to the altar were suppsed to symbolise a freedom to enter marrige on your own accord but that freedom did not exist and if you had on opportunity to ask those women if they had choosen their groom themselves, if their fathers/brothers/fathers-in-law had any influence, you would probably find a minority saying it was their decision and theirs alone.

Sweden was mainly an agricultural society at that time and the preservation of the land and farm were important and neighbours all to often married their children regardless.

For me personally, this is not big issue. I respect whatever decision Victoria and Daniel take. I grow up in Sweden but married in Norway and according to Norwegian tradition, my father escorted me to the altar. It was a very special moment for both of us and I certainly did not feel supressed or unequal in any way, on the contrary, it was a nice way of saying good bye to single life and hello marrige life and I never regretted.

I certainly would like to change to a freedom of choice, it is their marrige and ceremon and not the priest's, pastor's or archbishop's.
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