The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #81  
Old 06-24-2014, 03:13 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Lapalisse, France
Posts: 827
Quote:
Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Princess Alexandra is no different than her cousin Camille Gottlieb. They are the same. It is just a concept that some feel for no other reason than it was taught to them. All people are the same in the eyes of God, for an example.
All people are the same in the eye of God but very few will disagree that we treat Elizabeth II quite differently than Annie Smith, despite their equalness in the eyes of God...

I also disagree that Alexandra and Camille are the same. The last one is a Princess of Hannover, a grand royal dynasty. In essence Mr Peter Phillips is no different for a Prince Harry, both are grandsons of the Queen but their perception and their standing could not differ more.

However, ultimately it are the royals themselves. In some threads some remarked that the new King of Spain is probably Europe's most royal King. That might be so, but he himself ended that "perfect" royal ancestry, like many of his temporaries, so probably he does not care. It is interesting that it seems Grand Duchess María Teresa, herself a commoner and had to find her place at the Court, strongly "steered" her eldest son towards "suitable" candidates. The marriages with Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz, Stéphanie de Lannoy, Rodolphe van Limburg-Stirum and Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein seem to indicate that brides "with a certain background" are still preferred.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 06-24-2014, 03:53 AM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 4,527
Maria Teresa seems pleased with all of her daughters-in-law ,from the decidedly working class Tessy Anthony to Countess Stephanie De Lannoy to Claire Lademacher, daughter of nouveau rich mega wealth. She and her husband went on record years ago emphasizing that their children would be encouraged to make their own choices for life partners, with no interference from them. It's one of the things I think is so wonderful about the Grand Duke and Grand Duchess of Luxembourg.

As fortune would have it, her three eldest sons have each made matches with extraordinary young women, but who couldn't be more different from one another.
__________________

__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:13 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 3,866
I think that perhaps the biggest reason there is no need for royals to marry royals or even a partner from a "suitable" bloodline or a well established family line is because in this day and age with constitutional monarchies and the EU and countries becoming more and more diverse in their population, those days are long gone by when House X and House Y would betroth their young children to cement a treaty or to present a unified front against King Z or the country of Q. Arranged marriages for political reason was very much the norm during earlier periods of history and the "bride" brought land, wealth, political alliances to the "groom" through marriage. Sometimes, believe it or not, a marriage could prevent a war.

Of course in this day and age, parents still do want their children to marry happily and yet be financially stable and be important in the world. I used to shake my head at my mother when she would describe someone as coming "from good money". To be honest, I've never come across any bad money (except for working as a cashier once. I did get handed a counterfeit bill on one occasion).
__________________
“We live in a world where we have to hide to make love, while violence is practiced in broad daylight.”
~~~ John Lennon ~~~
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:24 AM
Marengo's Avatar
Administrator
Royal Blogger, TRF Author
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 14,273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
All people are the same in the eye of God but very few will disagree that we treat Elizabeth II quite differently than Annie Smith, despite their equalness in the eyes of God...

I also disagree that Alexandra and Camille are the same. The last one is a Princess of Hannover, a grand royal dynasty. In essence Mr Peter Phillips is no different for a Prince Harry, both are grandsons of the Queen but their perception and their standing could not differ more.

However, ultimately it are the royals themselves. In some threads some remarked that the new King of Spain is probably Europe's most royal King. That might be so, but he himself ended that "perfect" royal ancestry, like many of his temporaries, so probably he does not care. It is interesting that it seems Grand Duchess María Teresa, herself a commoner and had to find her place at the Court, strongly "steered" her eldest son towards "suitable" candidates. The marriages with Mathilde d'Udekem d'Acoz, Stéphanie de Lannoy, Rodolphe van Limburg-Stirum and Elisabetta Rosboch von Wolkenstein seem to indicate that brides "with a certain background" are still preferred.
I think that much/ most of the Brussels aristocratic circle marries fellow aristocrats. In some families it is rare to find commoners. The Belgian noble association organises a lot of events etc. where everybody meets each other so the chance that a noble will find a noble partner is higher. And of course much of the higher classes put their children on the same schools, catholic youth movements, scouting groups etc. Still, parents preferring their children to marry somebody from a simular social background is not restricted to the nobility.

In the Netherlands the marriages between nobles are less common (though statistically they still marry each other or the patriciate quite often). But the nobles mix more with 'new' elites. For example: the wife of the baron van Wassenaer is a neonatologist and related to the governor of South-Holland, his maternal grandfather is Gerard Wiarda, the late president of the High Counsil. In that light, the marriage partners for the Dutch princes fits with the trend in the group: all academically educated women from upper-middle class backgrounds (save Pss. Annette who has a university degree in psychology but who is from a working class family IIRC). Much of the kings friends come from the nobility/patriciate, are university educated, several of them at Harvard, and have managment jobs in the business world.
__________________
TRF Rules and FAQ
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 06-24-2014, 04:26 AM
Moonmaiden23's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Los Angeles, United States
Posts: 4,527
Too funny and true Osipi!

My birth family doesn't have a drop of Royal or noble blood but every time I brought a date home my father wanted to know first and foremost what kind of student he was, had he ever been in trouble with the law and what kind of family he came from. That last part was ALWAYS important to him. No riff-raff need apply.

It's the same in many of the remaining dynasties. Some-not all-come from a certain strata of society that they are not interested in seeing diminished by marriages that they feel are not worthy of them. Some things will never change.
__________________
"Be who God intended you to be, and you will set the world on fire" St. Catherine of Siena
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 07-04-2014, 10:25 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
Replying to your January 2014 post, Ish, I consider your information better than that of the Mormon genealogy records. I happen to have a close-by source of the Mormon records because there is a Mormon church, with a records tie to Salt Lake City, less than a mile from my house.
In doing research into my own genealogy of the Middle Ages, I consulted many sources, not one, because I didn't have an absolutely perfect and reliable source to consult. I found "Normans in Scotland", a book by Graeme Ritchie, which helped immensely, even through its footnotes, in directing me to truer genealogical material for my own family in Scotland. Sometimes one looks and looks and only after a long time one finds the "truth." Edison said he invented 999 lightbulbs before he invented one which works.
In the case of obviously enthroned royal families, their records are kept for many many generations by reliable people, so their task is negligible when pinpointing royal descent.

Once again, without actually looking at the Mormon sources I can't really comment on the validity of their claims. All I can say for certain is that the website familysearch.org isn't supported; it's an open site that lets people make trees with no sources.

The Earls Grey are individuals with well recorded families. If sites like the Peerage don't list a child for one of them named Charlotte then chances are they didn't have an acknowledged daughter with that name - and the Peerage lists no such child.

In the case of Robert Woods himself... The whole theory that Edward and his long term mistress had a child that all record of was later erased by Victoria when she was Queen is ridiculous. There are a few different legends that seem to happen here. First of all, it's ascribing far too much power to Elizabeth. Any illegitimate child of Edward's would have been born well before Victoria came to power, meaning that she would have to destroy 20+ years of record linking her half-brother to her father. Given as this would include any private references made in people's diaries, it's not particularly feasible to believe that Victoria had such power.

The second is the fact that the whole idea about Robert Woods is that his parents had him but didn't acknowledge him and instead gave him up for adoption by a Canadian couple. Which... Sure it's within the realm of possibility, but not really likely. This was a long-term relationship. Edward's brothers had acknowledged the children born to their long-term mistresses, and Edward himself had acknowledged children by previous mistresses. The story that Edward had a child with Madame de Saint-Laurent is really just a legend.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 07-04-2014, 10:43 PM
Ish's Avatar
Ish Ish is offline
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 2,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mariel View Post
In the modern era, DNA can rule out SOME specific familial diseases. I imagine that this has been done in the cases of non-reigning royals who marry. Quietly, of course.
In the case of a "dominant" gene, which descends to 50% of children (or 75% when both parents have it) there is NO chance of the children having the same mutation if a parent does not have it. So the outlook for royals marrying cousins today could be simpler, in terms of checking out mutation problems scientifically. If a British royal wanted to marry a German cousin, their DNA would be well-mapped and at least the obvious defects could be ruled out, and love could bloom!
I think other traits than we know of descend through families, however, not just traits for physical impairment. Traits of personality descend. Most of you probably have observed this.

Once again, this isn't how genetics works. If a trait is determined by only 1 gene and a person has the markers for both the dominant and recessive trait (Gg) and their spouse just has the recessive markers (gg) then their children each have a 50% chance of receiving the dominant trait, but they could or could not receive it - it is not a guarantee that 50% of their children will receive it. If both parents are Gg then the children have a 75% chance of receiving the dominant trait, but if either parent is GG then they have a 100% chance of receiving it.

Not all traits are determined by just one genetic marker though, so things become even harder to predict. Consider hair colour - that's determined by at least two markers, which is why there are so many different hair colours.

As for royals' DNA being mapped... I strongly doubt that their DNA has been well mapped. We know that some have had at least aspects of their DNA mapped in order to identify the remains of people (i.e. Prince Philip's DNA was used to determine the identity of the remains of the family of Nicholas II), but I strongly doubt there has been an extensive testing of any royal's DNA in order to determine what genetic diseases they have. Royals tend to be pretty private about things, particularly health, and I somehow doubt they'd allow for access to do that (even without cloning considerations).
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 07-05-2014, 04:26 AM
Tilia C.'s Avatar
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: O, Germany
Posts: 1,590
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Too funny and true Osipi!

My birth family doesn't have a drop of Royal or noble blood but every time I brought a date home my father wanted to know first and foremost what kind of student he was, had he ever been in trouble with the law and what kind of family he came from. That last part was ALWAYS important to him. No riff-raff need apply.

It's the same in many of the remaining dynasties. Some-not all-come from a certain strata of society that they are not interested in seeing diminished by marriages that they feel are not worthy of them. Some things will never change.
Or things change very, very slowly. Nowadays Dad may still ask all his questions, but in the end he has to accept your decision.

And somehow this slow social change goes for all social classes/groups; not just for royals and aristos. Imagine that 100 or 150 years ago a farmer's son wanted to wed the dairy maid. Daddy farmer would have had a mayor fit, because a daughter-in-law had to be a farmer's daughter with a couple of cows and a chest of linen as dowry, and the skills needed by a farmer's wife. The same goes for tradesmen, craftsmen, doctors or parson: they all looked for wives with the right dowry, the right family and business connections, and knowledge of the trade. A daughter of a baker would just know better how to lead a baker's household than the daughter of the smith. Besides the right father-in-law might improve your business connections, or your position within your guild. So craftsmen would arrange marriages within their own guild and tradesmen arranged their marriages within their own trade, if possible.

Nowadays women have their own jobs, they don't "marry" their professions anymore. That freed people to marry for love, and also led to a general disapproval of arranged marriages. A good development, imo.

There is a hitch for reigning royal houses, because there the partners still "marry their job". But then we now have the perception that a profession can be learned by (nearly) anyone and does not have to be inherited. If a farmers daughter can study architecture, then a shop keeper's daughter can learn how to represent her country as a Queen.

I put the "nearly" in brackets because I still believe that it needs some personal qualities and talents to learn certain things. Eg you need the brains to study medicine, and if you are highly intelligent but faint a the sight of blood - well, maybe better study something else.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 08-27-2014, 04:29 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Posts: 752
I find even the title of this thread rather odd... Well, because they fall in love like any one else!
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 08-27-2014, 04:31 AM
lucien's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 6,210
Quote:
Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
I find even the title of this thread rather odd... Well, because they fall in love like any one else!
exactly...
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth charlene chris o'neill crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria current events fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hohenzollern infanta leonor infanta sofia jewellery jordan king abdullah ii king carl xvi gustav king constantine ii king felipe king felipe vi king harald king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander luxembourg olympics ottoman palace pom pregnancy president hollande president komorowski prince albert prince albert ii prince carl philip prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince floris prince pieter-christiaan princess alexia (2005 -) princess anita princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess margriet princess mary queen letizia queen mathilde queen maxima queen paola queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sofia hellqvist spain state visit wedding



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:18 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]