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  #61  
Old 06-21-2014, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There are as many royals left as in the old days. Families considered 100% ´equal´ are:

Anhalt
Austria-Hungary (Habsburg)
Baden
Bavaria (Wittelsbach)
Belgium
Bonaparte
Brazil (Orléans-Bragança)
Bulgaria (Saxen-Coburg and Gotha)
Denmark
France (Bourbon)
Great Britain (Windsor)
Greece and Denmark
Hannover
Hessen
Hohenzollern
Italy (Savoia and Savoia-Aosta)
(Schleswig-)Holstein
Liechtenstein
Lippe
Luxembourg (Nassau)
Mecklenburg
Monaco (Grimaldi)
Montenegro (Petrovich)
The Netherlands (Orange-Nassau)
Norway
Oldenburg
Parma (Bourbon)
Portugal (Bragança)
Prussia (Hohenzollern)
Reuss
Romania (Hohenzollern)
Russia (Romanov)
Saxony
Schaumburg-Lippe
Spain (Bourbon)
Sweden (Bernadotte)
Tuscany (Habsburg)
Two Sicilies (Bourbon)
Waldeck (Waldeck-Pyrmont)
Württemberg
Yugoslavia (Karageorgevich)

Then there are a LOT of families which are not fully equal but a marriage with these was not seen as a mésalliance, Houses like Croÿ, Hohenlohe, Isenburg, Löwenstein-Wertheim, Thurn und Taxis, Windisch-Graetz, Sayn-Wittgenstein, Lobkowicz, and name them all...

Case in point, the de Ligne/de Lannoy's of Belgium of which HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg's wife Stephanie is a member of both.

I doubt if anyone in the Grand Ducal family feels he "married down".
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  #62  
Old 06-21-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Case in point, the de Ligne/de Lannoy's of Belgium of which HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg's wife Stephanie is a member of both.

I doubt if anyone in the Grand Ducal family feels he "married down".
And the marriages of Prince Antonio of Brazil and Princess Christine of Ligne and of Prince Michel of Ligne and Princess Eleonora of Brazil, in 1981, were regarded as dynastic and the children of both marriages enjoy the right to succeed to the defunct Brazilian Throne.
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  #63  
Old 06-22-2014, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There are as many royals left as in the old days. Families considered 100% ´equal´ are:

Anhalt
Austria-Hungary (Habsburg)
Baden
Bavaria (Wittelsbach)
Belgium
Bonaparte
Brazil (Orléans-Bragança)
Bulgaria (Saxen-Coburg and Gotha)
Denmark
France (Bourbon)
Great Britain (Windsor)
Greece and Denmark
Hannover
Hessen
Hohenzollern
Italy (Savoia and Savoia-Aosta)
(Schleswig-)Holstein
Liechtenstein
Lippe
Luxembourg (Nassau)
Mecklenburg
Monaco (Grimaldi)
Montenegro (Petrovich)
The Netherlands (Orange-Nassau)
Norway
Oldenburg
Parma (Bourbon)
Portugal (Bragança)
Prussia (Hohenzollern)
Reuss
Romania (Hohenzollern)
Russia (Romanov)
Saxony
Schaumburg-Lippe
Spain (Bourbon)
Sweden (Bernadotte)
Tuscany (Habsburg)
Two Sicilies (Bourbon)
Waldeck (Waldeck-Pyrmont)
Württemberg
Yugoslavia (Karageorgevich)

Then there are a LOT of families which are not fully equal but a marriage with these was not seen as a mésalliance, Houses like Croÿ, Hohenlohe, Isenburg, Löwenstein-Wertheim, Thurn und Taxis, Windisch-Graetz, Sayn-Wittgenstein, Lobkowicz, and name them all...

Thank you Maybe they are still limited in comparison to the vast commoner people around the world
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  #64  
Old 06-22-2014, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by COUNTESS View Post
Royals married royals for alliances and also, the belief that they were imbued by God for their positions. No one believes such nonsense any more. So, they realized it didn't matter.
It is not nonsense and it still happens. Still today parents hope that their son or daughter make "a good marriage" and with this is not only meant "love" but also wealth and social standing.

In most families parents will jump up high when their daughter comes home with a Harvard or Yale graduate from a "good family" and they will jump up less high when their daughter comes home with an unemployed guy without qualifications and no prospects. So even in our time, in perfectly normal marriages, not only "love" is considered but also other important elements.

Royals are so high in society and hierarchy, higher is often not possible. Prince William is destined to become the future King of Great Britain. He will become one of Britain's most wealthy men. Marrying to get higher up in hierarchy or for more money is not really necessary at all. That is also the reason why the last royal partners: Miss Catherine Middleton, Ms Camilla Shand, Lady Diana Spencer, Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Princess Mary of Teck, etc. were not THE most illustrious and THE most profitable marriages imagineable. There was no need for that. Higher in hierarchy, higher in social standing, higher in prestige, all this is not possible, they are really at the top of the mighty pyramid.

For me an alliance with, for an example Lady Rachel Fitzalan-Howard, daughter of the 17th Duke of Norfolk and one of Britain's most prestigious (if not THE most prestigious) Peers would strenghthen the links with history and the roots within Britain. I would love such a marriage but apparently all this is of no interest anymore. It is very well possible that, with three Queens coming (Amalia, Elisabeth, Leonor), that the swing will go the other way and they will choose more traditional partners. Who knows.
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  #65  
Old 06-22-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is not nonsense and it still happens. Still today parents hope that their son or daughter make "a good marriage" and with this is not only meant "love" but also wealth and social standing.

In most families parents will jump up high when their daughter comes home with a Harvard or Yale graduate from a "good family" and they will jump up less high when their daughter comes home with an unemployed guy without qualifications and no prospects. So even in our time, in perfectly normal marriages, not only "love" is considered but also other important elements.

Royals are so high in society and hierarchy, higher is often not possible. Prince William is destined to become the future King of Great Britain. He will become one of Britain's most wealthy men. Marrying to get higher up in hierarchy or for more money is not really necessary at all. .......Higher in hierarchy, higher in social standing, higher in prestige, all this is not possible, they are really at the top of the mighty pyramid.

.......It is very well possible that, with three Queens coming (Amalia, Elisabeth, Leonor), that the swing will go the other way and they will choose more traditional partners. Who knows.
So true!
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  #66  
Old 06-22-2014, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is very well possible that, with three Queens coming (Amalia, Elisabeth, Leonor), that the swing will go the other way and they will choose more traditional partners. Who knows.
The Duchess of Brabant has a lot of belgian aristocrats to choose. And I once heard that The Duke of Braganza would like to see his youngest son, The Duke of Porto, marrying the now Princess of Asturias.
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  #67  
Old 06-22-2014, 12:32 PM
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Why would someone marry a royal, especially a heir? You will live the rest of your life in the public, no privacy as there will always be someone with a camera, you will be expected to produce at least a couple of perfect children and always be polite and gracious no matter how stupid questions journalists ask. I believe there may actually be an issue of ...why do "suitable" partners not want to marry a royal. If you are from the families that would be "acceptable", you could enjoy the upper-crust life, money, travel, royal galas and events anyway without the negative sides of a life in the royal fishbowl.
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  #68  
Old 06-23-2014, 02:00 AM
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I am of the strong belief that "true love" in the finest tradition of the 'Princess Bride' can be the only explanation for any suitable, well balanced, mature woman being, willing to "give up" so very, very, much in return for an incredibly restricted life.

You only have to look at Harry to know that many mature, confident, pedigreed woman have avoided anything but friendship or have avoided him altogether so that situation cannot arise.

You can't tell me that there were not many perfectly pedigreed, millinery sporting, beautifully coiffed, elegantly attired, decorously behaved, Ascot Race attendees that fall into the infinitely presentable category.
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  #69  
Old 06-23-2014, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Cris M View Post
The Duchess of Brabant has a lot of belgian aristocrats to choose. And I once heard that The Duke of Braganza would like to see his youngest son, The Duke of Porto, marrying the now Princess of Asturias.
All the three named future Queens have a lot of aristiocrats to choose, in their own country or from foreign countries. Of course this applies on the future Queen Estelle as well. There is another future Queen: Ingrid Alexandra or Norway. There is no own nobility in Norway, so if a blueblooded partner is requested, she has to look outside Norway.

It is very well possible that all these young ladies will marry commoners but I hope they will try to keep their Royal House a bit blueblooded indeed.

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  #70  
Old 06-23-2014, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
Case in point, the de Ligne/de Lannoy's of Belgium of which HGD Guillaume of Luxembourg's wife Stephanie is a member of both.

I doubt if anyone in the Grand Ducal family feels he "married down".
Stéphanie de Lannoy comes from a family with the highest esteem, one of the oldest noble families in the Low Countries. In 1551 Willem I of Nassau, Prince of Orange (the founder of present-day Netherlands) married Anne d'Egmont. Her mother (and so Willem's mother-in-law) was Françoise de Lannoy, this is illustrative for the standing the family already had, so many centuries ago.

The family De Ligne is the eldest and most prestigious noble families in the Low Countries. One of the junior De Lignes married the last De la Trémoïlle (one of the eldest and most prestigious noble families of France) and forms a collateral branch named De Ligne de la Trémoïlle.

But.... for the "royal hardliners" even families as De Lannoy and De Ligne were not considered "equal" because they were never a Sovereign or a former Sovereign (= mediatized) family. However without any doubt the Grand Duke of Luxembourg will consider the alliance of his eldest son Guillaume with Countess Stéphanie de Lannoy as a most befitting one and he is right with that.

:)

There are a couple of Houses in the Low Countries which are considered "equal" for royal marriages, these are in fat, the others are outside the Dutch or Belgian nobility:

Arenberg
Aspremont-Lynden
Auersperg
Bentheim-Steinfurt
Bentheim-Tecklenburg
Bentinck
Bömmelberg
Bretzenheim
Castell-Castell
Castell-Rüdenhausen
Colloredo-Mannsfeld
Croÿ
Dietrichstein
Erbach-Erbach
Erbach-Fürstenau
Erbach-Schönberg
Esterházy
Fürstenberg
Fugger-Babenhausen
Fugger-Glött
Fugger-Kirchberg
Fugger-Kirchheim
Fugger-Nordendorf
Harrach
Hohenlohe-Ingelfingen
Hohenlohe-Kirchberg
Hohenlohe-Langenburg
Hohenlohe-Öhringen
Hohenlohe-Schillingsfürst
Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Bartenstein
Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Jagstberg
Hohenlohe-Waldenburg-Schillingsfürst
Isenburg-Birstein
Isenburg-Büdingen
Isenburg-Philippseich
Kaunitz-Rietberg
Khevenhüller-Metsch
Königsegg-Aulendorf
Kuefstein
Leiningen
Leiningen-Alt-Leiningen-Westerburg
Leiningen-Billigheim
Leiningen-Neudenau
Leyen
Limburg-Stirum
Lobkowitz
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg
Löwenstein-Wertheim-Rosenberg
Looz-Corswarem
Metternich-Winneburg
Neipperg
Neu-Leiningen-Westerburg
Oettingen-Spielberg
Oettingen-Wallerstein
Ortenburg
Ostein
Pappenheim
Platen-Hallermund
Plettenberg-Wittem
Pückler und Limpurg
Quadt-Wykradt-Isny
Ratibor und Corvey
Rechberg und Rothenlöwen
Rechteren-Limpurg
Rosenberg-Orsini
Salm-Horstmar
Salm-Kyrburg
Salm-Reifferscheidt-Krautheim und Dyck
Salm-Reifferscheidt-Raitz
Salm-Salm
Sayn-Wittgenstein-Berleburg
Sayn-Wittgenstein-Hohenstein
Schaesberg
Schlitz genannt von Görtz
Schönborn
Schönborn-Buchheim
Schönborn-Wiesentheid
Schönburg-Glauchau
Schönburg-Hartenstein
Schönburg-Waldenburg
Schwarzenberg
Sinzendorf
Solms-Braunfels
Solms-Hohensolms-Lich
Solms-Laubach
Stadion-Tannhausen
Stadion-Warthausen
Starhemberg
Sternberg-Manderscheid
Stolberg-Roßla
Stolberg-Stolberg
Stolberg-Wernigerode
Thurn und Taxis
Toerring
Trauttmansdorff-Weinsberg
Waldbott-Bassenheim
Waldburg-Wolfegg und Waldsee
Waldburg-Zeil
Waldburg-Zeil-Wurzach
Waldeck-Limpurg
Wallmoden-Gimborn
Wartenberg-Roth
Wied-Neuwied
Wied-Runkel
Windisch-Graetz
Wurmbrand-Stuppach
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  #71  
Old 06-23-2014, 05:49 AM
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Neither the Aspremont-Lynden family or the Limburg-Stirum family has been included in part 2 or 3 of the Gotha, AFAIK they are not 'equal'. The most of the Bentinck family that remains today is not 'equal' either. The Aldenburg-Bentinck family was, but the only member of that family that is alive today is Css Sophie (sister of the late Css Isabelle zu Ortenberg), who married an Italian count. After her death the Dutch branch of the 'equal' part of the house will be extinct. The senior British branch is still there though (Earls of Portland). All the other Dutch Bentincks are barons.

Even though the Lannoy family is included in the 3rd part of the Gotha, the family would hardly be considered 'equal' in the old days indeed. Despite their impressive family history. Neither would the de Ligne family for that matter, or much of the 2nd part of the Gotha.

-
About marrying 'down' (awful term) in Luxembourg; since the Grand Duke married a commoner and his brothers married commoners too (though with noble/royal connections) ánd two daughters-in-law of the GD are neither royal nor noble, I don't think marrying 'equal' is on their top of mind. Thankfully.
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  #72  
Old 06-23-2014, 06:28 AM
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I grant everyone their fair share of happiness and love. But the more "common" Royal Houses become, the more the ultimate question will arise why they are still treated "Royal" anyway and then they have no answer.

Many of Europe's future Sovereigns already have three commoner grandparents, covering 3/4 of their "Ahnentafel" (Ancestor Table) and this will only multiply when royals keep marrying commoners. Again, their right on happiness and love but ultimately it will lead to a certain profound question: what differs members of the Royal House from us, commoners?

In my personal opinion a certain distance, "aura" is needed because monarchies are not build on ratio but on emotion. Any rational thinking person will opt for a republic. It is the emotion, the attachment, the historical bond, the "specialness" which surrounds royals which still differs them from us. As soon as that certain disctance, "aura" has gone, there is no any difference anymore between royals and celebrities.
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  #73  
Old 06-23-2014, 09:43 AM
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The ultimate question -as you call it- of why they are still treated as royal, will rise up regardless of how many royal anscestors somebody has. And it is a legitemate question for this day and age where people are valued more for their merits and less for their pedigree (like dogs). But you can't say that the monarchies with more noble/royal connections like Belgium and Spain are more stable than the ones with less of them like Norway.

The danger of royals degraded to the levels of celebrities is a real one, but that won't be solved by marrying fellow royals/nobles. The noble Diana Spencer was as much -or even more- treated as a celebrity by the mass media as Catherine Middleton is, to name an example. The only recipe against this are the royal families themselves showing worth while initiatives and behaving with dignity. Sonja of Norway and Silvia of Sweden are not any less repsected/ less succesful than the noble Paola of Belgium and the royal Sofia of Spain.
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  #74  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is not nonsense and it still happens. Still today parents hope that their son or daughter make "a good marriage" and with this is not only meant "love" but also wealth and social standing.

In most families parents will jump up high when their daughter comes home with a Harvard or Yale graduate from a "good family" and they will jump up less high when their daughter comes home with an unemployed guy without qualifications and no prospects. So even in our time, in perfectly normal marriages, not only "love" is considered but also other important elements.

Royals are so high in society and hierarchy, higher is often not possible. Prince William is destined to become the future King of Great Britain. He will become one of Britain's most wealthy men. Marrying to get higher up in hierarchy or for more money is not really necessary at all. That is also the reason why the last royal partners: Miss Catherine Middleton, Ms Camilla Shand, Lady Diana Spencer, Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark, Lady Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon, Princess Mary of Teck, etc. were not THE most illustrious and THE most profitable marriages imagineable. There was no need for that. Higher in hierarchy, higher in social standing, higher in prestige, all this is not possible, they are really at the top of the mighty pyramid.

For me an alliance with, for an example Lady Rachel Fitzalan-Howard, daughter of the 17th Duke of Norfolk and one of Britain's most prestigious (if not THE most prestigious) Peers would strenghthen the links with history and the roots within Britain. I would love such a marriage but apparently all this is of no interest anymore. It is very well possible that, with three Queens coming (Amalia, Elisabeth, Leonor), that the swing will go the other way and they will choose more traditional partners. Who knows.
This is a great post and I agree, but when you refer to Rachel Fitzalan-Howard do you mean as a match for Harry? Aren't the Howards Roman Catholic?
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  #75  
Old 06-23-2014, 10:29 AM
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I agree completely. The ultimate fundament however why we once started to treat them as 'royal' is the exceptional position those families had, their remarkable bonds in the national and European history. I agree with you that having a grand pedigree is no guarantee for a stable monarchy. It is the core fundament of being a royal (or noble) family and of course all the rest is equally important or maybe even more important: dignity, transparency, respect. A scandal-ridden monarchy of the dark-bluest possible blood can manoeuvre itself in a danger-zone, see Spain. Ultimately however the fundament will erode. When Estelle, the daughter of Daniel Westling from Orebrö, marries an Erik Johansson from Degerfors, then it is definitely completely different from marrying a more traditional partner. Let us say that Estelle marries a lensgreve Wedell-Wedellsborg from Denmark, then this has a total different 'feel'. Like Princess Alexandra of Hannover is 'different' from her cousin Camille Gottlieb.

I for myself hope that the swing will somewhat go back to more traditional candidates. Purely to protect the core base of what differentiates "us" from royals.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:29 AM
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This is a great post and I agree, but when you refer to Rachel Fitzalan-Howard do you mean as a match for Harry? Aren't the Howards Roman Catholic?
As far as I know the ban on marrying Catholics has been lifted / will be lifted.

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  #77  
Old 06-23-2014, 08:25 PM
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I agree completely. The ultimate fundament however why we once started to treat them as 'royal' is the exceptional position those families had, their remarkable bonds in the national and European history. I agree with you that having a grand pedigree is no guarantee for a stable monarchy. It is the core fundament of being a royal (or noble) family and of course all the rest is equally important or maybe even more important: dignity, transparency, respect. A scandal-ridden monarchy of the dark-bluest possible blood can manoeuvre itself in a danger-zone, see Spain. Ultimately however the fundament will erode. When Estelle, the daughter of Daniel Westling from Orebrö, marries an Erik Johansson from Degerfors, then it is definitely completely different from marrying a more traditional partner. Let us say that Estelle marries a lensgreve Wedell-Wedellsborg from Denmark, then this has a total different 'feel'. Like Princess Alexandra of Hannover is 'different' from her cousin Camille Gottlieb.

I for myself hope that the swing will somewhat go back to more traditional candidates. Purely to protect the core base of what differentiates "us" from royals.
Nothing does, except mystique, which is almost dead. Some are admired for their efforts. and rightly so. Princess Alexandra is no different than her cousin Camille Gottlieb. They are the same. It is just a concept that some feel for no other reason than it was taught to them. All people are the same in the eyes of God, for an example. Princess Estelle is hardly "royal". He great forebear, Jean Baptiste Bernadotte was born a commoner in France and was asked to come to Sweden and be their king, as the House of Vasa was no longer viable, shall we say. His wife Desiree Clary was the daughter of a silk merchant. If you go down the ranks, her grandmother and a lovely woman, is not "royal", nor is her father. So, it is only made up perception that makes the difference.
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  #78  
Old 06-24-2014, 12:58 AM
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So, it is only made up perception that makes the difference.
Same goes for a lot of other things in the world...
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  #79  
Old 06-24-2014, 02:03 AM
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I think a lot of princes make the mistake of marrying commoners with too much baggage. There are women out there who are successful and commoners, without the baggage of a lot of the princesses, like Mette-Marit (who is rumored to be cheating on Haakon) and a handful of others.

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Originally Posted by Moonmaiden23 View Post
This is a great post and I agree, but when you refer to Rachel Fitzalan-Howard do you mean as a match for Harry? Aren't the Howards Roman Catholic?
Yes, but Catholics are now allowed to marry royal princes of Britain, since the ban against Catholics has recently been abolished. I think Lady Rose would have been a fabulous match and would have ended up being a magnificent bride for William. She would have been tied to the Northern families (ridiculously wealthy and powerful in Britain) and I believe that it would impress hard core republicans and Lady Rose would probably be well trained to handle royal life (living like a semi-royal already) and be treated with respect by the RF if only because of her background.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:19 AM
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The ban on royals in the UK marrying Roman Catholics hasn't yet been lifted because the relevant law hasn't passed in all the other realms - yet.

Until it has done so it is still the law in the UK so if Harry married a RC he would lose his place - until the law was passed and they he would be back in.

It is the same with the need to have the monarch's permission to marry - is going to change to only the first 6 but hasn't done so - yet - and the gender neutral inheritance as well.

All three are in the one piece of legislation and it is not yet effective.
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