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  #21  
Old 05-29-2007, 02:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orrinhoover
a sort of "crowned republic." An official recognition of the former dynasty; inviting the ranking representative of that dynasty to state events; using the pretender to the throne (call them Prince of Germany, Prince of Portugal, Archduke of Austria, etc.) for official overseas functions. In this way, the modern majority who are republicans are not offended by having an hereditary arrangement re-established and those who are monarchists are able to sate their desire to have their nation's royalty recognized. It's a half measure, but it's better than nothing. And perhaps, through this half measure, with deposed royal families proving themselves and their value and worth, they might pave the way towards their eventual restoration. Who would have thought that after decades of dictatorship in Spain, King Juan Carlos would have proven such a success?
I think that would be a good idea/plan to have set aside - if the mood changes or so to speak in those former republics, both sides win.
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  #22  
Old 05-29-2007, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by flctylu
Question...
-What are he chances of France becoming a constitutional monarchy? I woke up this morning to hear that Nickolas Scarkozy is the new president of France and that there were riots throughout Paris contesting against him [I know its probly just a one off thing but...I havn't heard a lot of nice things about him].
-Hungary?
[not a dual monarchy...What is the [political] atmosphere like in Austria and Hungary?]
-Austria?
I can't speak for Hungary (apart from asking myself who would be their king, given the fact that their king used to be the Austrian emperor, so there is no contender of their own - as far as I know. ???)

Austria (my country) - I don't think a reestablishment of the monarchy is likely. Sure, as far as tourism goes, we profit hugely from our
"imperial past". If you walk through Vienna, this past is THERE and is worth a lot of entrance tickets. And most Austrians would agree that we had our share of great monarchs - Maria Theresia, Joseph II, even Franz Joseph. There is even a small number of monarchists and Bad Ischl (where Franz Joseph spent his summer holidays) actually celebrates his birthday (I think this is some sort of cargo cult - celebrate the Emperor and maybe lots of worshippers will come and leave lots of money in the hands of the local pub owners). Even Otto (son to the last emperor) has become some sort of Grand Old Man of European Unification just by surviving until today and speaking German with a beautiful accent. But the current chief of the Haus Habsburg is seen as a bit of a joke, as was the recent beatification of Karl (last Emperor) on account of his healing a nun's varicose veins. Well. And other assorted miracles.
I believe that most Austrians think our politicians are one huge joke - but that at least we can get rid of them.
I agree with other people who in this thread argued that times simply have changed and that a re-establishment of a monarchy is unlikely.
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  #23  
Old 05-29-2007, 05:26 AM
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France is a monarchal republic

Quote:
Originally Posted by flctylu
Question...
-What are he chances of France becoming a constitutional monarchy? I woke up this morning to hear that Nickolas Scarkozy is the new president of France and that there were riots throughout Paris contesting against him [I know its probly just a one off thing but...I havn't heard a lot of nice things about him].
The riots in Paris have nothing to do with the constitution of France but all with the tough and draconic measures the new President announced to wake up France out of its social-economic lethargy. France is still largely a old-style welfare state which is a heavy burden for the taxpayer. But opposition against any reform (and there were countless attempts) is strong.

France is a monarchal republic: in everything it is a monarchy, but there is no monarch. I remember a commentator saying on television when Queen Beatrix and President Mitterrand entered an auditorium: "Look, there are the King of France and the President of the Netherlands".


While the Dutch Queen was friendly and accessible, the French president looked deadly serious and most affable and gave the impression as if he was the reincarnation of Louis le Grand (the Sun King): L'État, c'est moi.

By the way: Nicolas Paul Stéphane Sarkozy (originally: Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa) is of old Hungarian aristocracy, the Sarközy de Nagy-Bocsa family is noble since 1628.

Nobility is not unknown at the presidential palace (Palais de l'Élysée)

Former "First Lady" Bernadette Chirac-Chodron de Courcel is of noble descent: she is a daughter of Jean-Louis Baron Chodron de Courcel and of Marguerite Comtesse de Brondeau d'Urtières.

Former "First Lady"Anne-Aymone Giscard d'Estaing-Sauvage de Brantes is of noble descent: she is a daughter of François Comte Sauvage de Brantes and of Aymone Princesse de Faucigny-Lucinge.

Also a lot of the policians in France are of noble descent. In the present French Republic, nobility has no official and protected statute, like it has in the Netherlands or in Spain. The titles are not mentioned in official documents so the passport will, for an example, read 'Faucigny-Lucinge, Aymone de', without mentioning her title.
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  #24  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:06 AM
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Adding to the information Henri has provided, Prince Michel Poniatowski (of the eminent Polish princely family) was a Minister of the Interior under Giscard d"Estaing.
Reinforcing the French connection, his mother was a princess of Caraman-Chimay.
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  #25  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:11 AM
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Is the Giscard d'Estaing family noble btw? Or is it one of these unclear french 'noble' families, like the Laborde de Montpezats?
-
According to several serious sources a son of Giscard d'Estaing was about to get engaged with princess Margaretha of Luxembourg (now of Liechtenstein), but it was cancelled.
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  #26  
Old 05-29-2007, 06:28 AM
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From my understanding it is euphemistically "unclear". It is known that the President's grandfather added d'Estaing to the family name of Giscard in 1922, taking advantage of a very distant family connection.
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  #27  
Old 05-29-2007, 07:12 AM
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Examples of French nobles, out of my mind, in national politics are Hervé de Charette de la Condrie, Josselin de Rohan-Chabot, the previous Premier Minister Dominique Galouzeau de Villepin, the presidential candidate (who lost in the first round) Philippe le Jolis de Villiers de Santignon, etc.
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  #28  
Old 05-29-2007, 07:14 AM
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Isn't Villepin also one of the 'unclear' nobles? I believe Point de Vue had an issue about real and false nobles in French politics, not to long ago. Mr de Villepin was given a red mark by Point de Vue...
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  #29  
Old 05-29-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marengo
Isn't Villepin also one of the 'unclear' nobles? I believe Point de Vue had an issue about real and false nobles in French politics, not to long ago. Mr de Villepin was given a red mark by Point de Vue...
Dominique Galouzeau de Villepin is a false noble. However, madame de Villepin, born Marie-Laure Le Guay is a real noble.
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  #30  
Old 05-29-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henri M.

Former "First Lady" Bernadette Chirac-Chodron de Courcel is of noble descent: she is a daughter of Jean-Louis Baron Chodron de Courcel and of Marguerite Comtesse de Brondeau d'Urtières.
Except for the princely families, women belonging to noble families have no right to bear titles in France. Marguerite de Brondeau d'Urtières had no right to bear the countly title.
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  #31  
Old 05-29-2007, 09:01 AM
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I would like to give precisions about french titles. In nobles families, only the head of family can be called X, baron de Y. The other male members of the families will be baron X de Y (and it is only a courtesy title). The head of a family de Durand would be Jean, comte de Durand, while his uncle Paul (younger brother of the late comte) would be called Paul de Durand, or by courtesy comte Paul de Durand. The biggest part of the french titles in the Bottin Mondain or in the family announcements of Le Figaro are courtesy titles.

About the Chodron de Courcel family, the head of family is Jean Chodron, baron de Courcel and not Jean, baron Chodron de Courcel.
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  #32  
Old 05-29-2007, 03:03 PM
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I don't really think any of the former monarchies are in any danger of becoming such again Generally, I would say the movement is in the opposite direction. Finland, where I live, was first ruled by the kings of Sweden and then by the tsars of Russia, and and even had a king of its own for a very short period of time in the 1910s. Here most everyone thinks monarchy is ridiculous and royals mere parasites I would imagine that for example most French folks feel the same.

Bringing back old ruling families would be odd - like wiping out history, revolutions, change. New ruling families, on the other hand - who would you choose? In the old days, one became noble by serving the country, and then royal - in most cases - by luck and sheer sharp elbows. Would someone like Sir Bob Geldof - noble by serving his country - be a fitting person to become a king? How would you choose a monarch? By a popular vote? Would he/she pass the throne to his/her offspring or would there be another election? What would someone have to do to earn that status?

Not a very practical idea, I'm afraid
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2008, 08:13 PM
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But that would mean that Hawaii would have to secede from the USA and become an independent nation, right? Or can a state in the USA choose to have a hereditary governorship?
The King or Queen of Hawai'i would be a representative head of state, not the head of the legislative governing authority. Thus recognising the monarch would be separate from the office of governor.

The real problem is that Hawai'ians no longer make up a large enough chunk of the population to vote such a recognition in. When the US annexed the islands, something like 80% of the native Hawaiians petitioned to remain independent, and they were the majority then. If that wasn't good enough, 100% of Hawaiians with the same sentiments would not do the job today.
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2008, 08:18 PM
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lisamaria, I agree about Finland. What did the House of Hesse ever do for Suomi? Or, for that matter, Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov, or even Vasa? There is really not much of a successful tradition of monarchy, so there isn't really much of anything to restore. But not all countries are this way.

France needs to stay a republic. Even Turkey, with its six centuries of Osmanli rule, has flourished as Turkiye Cumhuriyeti (Republic of Turkey). What Ataturk did cannot be undone, and most Turks like it that way.
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2008, 08:22 PM
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Sometimes I think Iraq could use its monarchy back, but then again the Hashemites weren't well-liked there...mostly because they were perceived as pandering to the British. If restored, the same accusations would be made about the relationship with the US. Seriously, though, there is something to be said for the descendants of Prophet Mohammed (pbuh).
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  #36  
Old 04-30-2008, 09:09 PM
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I think Afghanistan could have also benefited had the King returned, taken his rightful place on the throne and led his country toward democracy. Perhaps he would have if any of his sons had been interested in following in his footsteps and finishing the task after his death.

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  #37  
Old 06-05-2008, 08:19 AM
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I think as said earlier countries like Vietnam have a good chance of being a Monarchy. I also agree with lisamaria in Finland's case and many others in Europe. However I think it really comes down to the culture of the people and what they perceive as being a good leader? Elected or from decent. Some cultures grow onto their leaders for a lifetime while others may want change every once in a while. It's interesting about Afghanistan because there was popular support for a return to the monarchy once former King Zahir Shah returned from exile, however he declined.
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  #38  
Old 06-05-2008, 10:26 AM
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(I think this is some sort of cargo cult - celebrate the Emperor and maybe lots of worshippers will come and leave lots of money in the hands of the local pub owners).
That is probably the funniest thing I have ever read here.
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  #39  
Old 06-05-2008, 03:01 PM
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Id love it in Russia Prince Nicholas as Nicholas III Also Greece ,Germany and Prussia there have been times id loveforAmerica to go bck to the UK.
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  #40  
Old 06-05-2008, 10:55 PM
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The Russian succession is so muddied at this point it would be all but impossible. PS, Nicholas doesn't have a claim due to morganatic marriage anyway.

Greece won't happen.. Germany is unlikely but possible (since it's arguable that the forced removal of royalty there is one of the major incidents that led to WWII). Prussia doesn't exist anymore.
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