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  #41  
Old 12-07-2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Well then pretty much everyone in England is royal since most of us seem to have a monarch somewhere in our lineage. 30% of us descend from Edward III and a rather large number descend from Charles II since he took his role as father of the nation rather seriously
I admire his diligence and dedication. That's as close as I can get to a "harmless joke" on this rather sad day. Thanks in any case, for making me smile.
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  #42  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:43 AM
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I think by definition, one is either royal or not. If one divorces from a royal partner then one could be classed as an ex-royal. Of course I agree that there would have had to have been a crown somewhere in the past, but one's heritage is part of one's makeup and so one never loses it.
My grandmother would always proudly point out that her grandfather was a German baron. However, he emigrated to the US after the Prussian wars.
I would not consider even his son royal or noble, just that we have an interesting ancestor.

But there is still some meaning for native culture in the Hawaiian royals. I am also part Hawaiian, though no ali'i (royal) blood that I know about.
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  #43  
Old 07-31-2013, 03:37 PM
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This might not be strictly on topic, but a question from some of the discussion...

I understand the former royal family from Greece is related to the Danish monarchy and carry those royal titles, but also use their Greek titles. Pavlos is still referred to as Crown Prince, which would imply he is the heir to a throne. So, if King Constantine passes, will Crown Prince Pavlos style himself "King" even though no such throne exists any longer or will he remain a prince and the presumptive heir should Greece bring back the monarchy?

I don't mean to stir up conflict over legitimacy, but wondered how that worked. Thank you!
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  #44  
Old 07-31-2013, 04:01 PM
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^^^
As a general rule the heirs do not use their fathers "Kingly" titles. They continue with their own titles and become heads of their families.
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  #45  
Old 07-31-2013, 06:35 PM
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The whole concept of the "blood royal" is really what this is based on. when the royals and nobility marry commoners, the royal bloodline is diminished. This is a good thing, as it begins to correct the genetic hazards.

I wonder what goes on behind the scenes in picking mates among these people, who are probably educated about modern science and the genetic hazards of marrying a close relative. In some cases, where marrying equally is still required in order to keep a title, the person must really look hard, under every rock as it were, to see if his prospective spouse is not only equal but also healthy. Probably geneticists are even employed to look hard.
When the present Prince of Prussia had to marry equally, he must have looked hard, and when I see him and his wife together I always see on their faces the look of "I made it!" Fortunately their twin sons no longer have to marry equally.

There IS a mystique of royal blood.

In addition, to me, a royal person, or noble person, earns his or her title by good behavior and cultured education and manners. Some ex-royals behave badly in several different categories, and to me they have forfeited pretension to being royal. The more categories they flub up on, the less royal they become. Finally they are just rich pretentious ignoramuses, if this goes far enough
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2013, 08:03 AM
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In Germany, old defunct titles can be incorporated into the surname..like

Frédéric Prinz von Anhalt (formerly known as Hans Robert Lichtenberg) (husband of Zsa Zsa Gabor) and (adopted adult son (for money consideration) of Princess Marie Auguste of Anhalt)...

BUT it is laughable to call him HRH PRINCE OF ANHALT

Ernst August Prinz von Hannover should also NOT be called HRH PRINCE OF HANNOVER

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however, proper ex-Royals (who actually reigned as monarch), such as

Tsar Simeon II of Bulgaria (reigning 1943-46) and still living,

King Michael I of Romania (reigning 1927-30 and 1940-47) and still living

King Constantine II of Greece (reigning 1964-1973) and still living

should still, by courtesy, be titled royals for their lifetimes
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  #47  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Kaatje View Post
This might not be strictly on topic, but a question from some of the discussion... I understand the former royal family from Greece is related to the Danish monarchy and carry those royal titles, but also use their Greek titles. Pavlos is still referred to as Crown Prince, which would imply he is the heir to a throne. So, if King Constantine passes, will Crown Prince Pavlos style himself "King" even though no such throne exists any longer or will he remain a prince and the presumptive heir should Greece bring back the monarchy? I don't mean to stir up conflict over legitimacy, but wondered how that worked. Thank you!
The same question could be asked of the Serbian royal house. The Hereditary Prince will one day succeed his father the Crown Prince -Aleksander II chose not to use the title, and remained Crown Prince, so what happens to Petar when he becomes head of the house? He is see as heir/ crown prince, but will he use that title or will he simply remain the Hereditary Prince?
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  #48  
Old 10-29-2013, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by USCtrojan View Post
The same question could be asked of the Serbian royal house. The Hereditary Prince will one day succeed his father the Crown Prince -Aleksander II chose not to use the title, and remained Crown Prince, so what happens to Petar when he becomes head of the house? He is see as heir/ crown prince, but will he use that title or will he simply remain the Hereditary Prince?
I think your answer would be seen if you llook at the german kings. you had King Ludwig of Bavaria but when he died his eldest son kept the title Crown Prince rather than take on the title of King. When Rupprecht died his son Albrecht simply remained as Duke Albrecht. The Hanoverians were the same when they were dethroned. King George V, Crown prince Ernst August, Prince Ernst August. Basically they just kept the titles they already held. Unless by some chance Serbia, Greece or even Roumania are reinstated, the titles will eventually just be Prince Peter of Serbia etc.
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  #49  
Old 10-29-2013, 05:03 AM
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When Emperor Pedro II of Brazil died in 1891 (two years after the overthrown of the Brazilian Monarchy by a military coup d'état), his daughter and heiress, Princess Isabel, who was The Princess Imperial of Brazil (title used by the heir(ess) of the Brazilian Throne), titled herself as The Head of the Imperial House of Brazil (although the Monarchist Directory in Rio de Janeiro acclaimed her as Constitutional Empress and Perpetual Defender of Brazil.

Princess Isabel's eldest son, Prince Pedro de Alcântara, who since his birth in 1875 used the title of Prince of Grão-Pará (title used by the firstborn and heir(ess) of The Prince(ss) Imperial) then became The Prince Imperial.

Since then, the first in the Line of Succession to the Brazilian Throne uses the title of Head of the Imperial House of Brazil, while the second in Line uses the title of Prince(ss) Imperial.

Currently, The Head of the Imperial House is Prince Luiz of Brazil, and The Prince Imperial is his younger brother, Prince Bertrand of Brazil.

In Portugal, I think Head of the House will always use the title of Duke (or Duchess) of Braganza, while his (her) heir will use the title of Prince(ss) of Beira.
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  #50  
Old 10-29-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by fearghas View Post
I think your answer would be seen if you llook at the german kings. you had King Ludwig of Bavaria but when he died his eldest son kept the title Crown Prince rather than take on the title of King. When Rupprecht died his son Albrecht simply remained as Duke Albrecht. The Hanoverians were the same when they were dethroned. King George V, Crown prince Ernst August, Prince Ernst August. Basically they just kept the titles they already held. Unless by some chance Serbia, Greece or even Roumania are reinstated, the titles will eventually just be Prince Peter of Serbia etc.
It's only in some of the Princely Families where the Heir also used the Title Fürst after the death of is father. This is the case in the Houses Schaumburg-Lippe, Waldeck-Pyrmont and Reuß but not in the House of Lippe.
In Bavaria Albrecht was Prince and would have remained so after the death of his father but he opted to use the Title Duke of Bavaria for the Head of the House. Also in Saxony after the death of King Friedrich August III. his second son became Head of the House as the former Crown Prince Georg had renounced his rigths. he choose the use the Title Margrave of Meißen as head of the House which was also done by his son. And in Baden the head of the House is now the Margrave of Baden.
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  #51  
Old 10-29-2013, 07:26 PM
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It's only in some of the Princely Families where the Heir also used the Title Fürst after the death of is father. This is the case in the Houses Schaumburg-Lippe, Waldeck-Pyrmont and Reuß but not in the House of Lippe.
In Bavaria Albrecht was Prince and would have remained so after the death of his father but he opted to use the Title Duke of Bavaria for the Head of the House. Also in Saxony after the death of King Friedrich August III. his second son became Head of the House as the former Crown Prince Georg had renounced his rigths. he choose the use the Title Margrave of Meißen as head of the House which was also done by his son. And in Baden the head of the House is now the Margrave of Baden.
And the interesting thing is that the Duke/Margrave titles were their original titles before they were upgraded to King etc
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  #52  
Old 07-24-2016, 02:50 AM
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Sorry but this reminds me of an ep of Frasier (it was the first one I saw) where he and Niles think that they are descended from the Russian Imperial family- of course they are all excited. It turns out I the end that they were descended from a dubious servant who stole some Royal jewellery and Fraiser says something tragically like "our ancestors were thieves and whores".
My personal feeling is that when it gets to 2 generations away from someone who was actually "working royalty" they're not royal any more. So I suppose King Con II of Greece, his grandchildren can use royal titles if they like but they are not really royal...
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  #53  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:14 AM
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As a very general rule if you are listed in the ruling and mediatised royal houses section of the Gotha, than you are still regarded as Royal, regardless of the size of your realm or how long your throne had been abolished or even if your country exists anymore. At least that's the case at a courtly/social level - you will still be treated as such at other Royal events. fundamentally it's other royalty who make the decision over who is still Royal or not - laws banning titles don't really matter if you are still seen as such by your peer group so to speak.
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  #54  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:15 AM
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I agree, Denville. When it comes to three or four generations after the monarchy has been abolished and the royal family concerned has been exiled from their native land or just let back on sufferance really (like the Greek royals) then it's time to give up, darlings.

If there is no hope of their country ever restoring the monarchy (Russia, Austria or Germany for instance) I do think it's a little bit sad to have Imperial Grand Dukes and Duchesses referring to their children and grandchildren in the old manner, and heirs to non-existent thrones being Crown Princes as old men, with no chance of ever being crowned.

The princely and ducal houses of Germany (apart from the Hohenzollens) are a little different I suppose, in that several are still ensconced on family estates administering them and the families sometimes still live in their Schlosses.

As for the Almanach de Gotha, well, it is a very interesting historical record, especially if you are interested in genealogy, but as a directive on how to live your life three/four generations or more from a vanished throne, rather ridiculous, really.
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  #55  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:25 AM
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The Gotha is indeed the best instrument. There are also families considered to have an equal standing with royals, which never were "royal" themselves, because their Houses were mediatized. In the Gotha this is described "as having the right to be considered Ebenbürtig by Sovereign or former Sovereign Houses".

Princess Sophie von Isenburg (spouse of Prince Georg Ferdinand of Prussia) or his mother Countess Donata von Castell-Rüdenhausen do not sound equal to a Prussian Prince of the former imperial and royal family, but both Isenburg and Castell-Rüdenhausen were seen as standesgemäss (having an equal standing) because their Houses are enlisted in the Gotha and in the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels.
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  #56  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:30 AM
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I agree, Denville. When it comes to three or four generations after the monarchy has been abolished and the royal family concerned has been exiled from their native land or just let back on sufferance really (like the Greek royals) then it's time to give up, darlings.

I
ridiculous, really.
thanks!! It isn't a v considered opinion but I just am feeling it.. I think an ex King, it is polite to use the title, esp if he did his best.. and maybe his kids, but when it comes to grandchildren no. And If theres no hope of restoration, give up using the title and call yourself Mr VOn Hapsburg...
If the German royals still have some land, they can just use a lesser noble title and administer their estates..
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  #57  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:34 AM
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As for the question of deposed monarchs -they are former heads of state, something that's overlooked by many in this debate. Their heirs and successors are heads of the house which isn't just a title it can involve property management, certain religious functions, and are still part of that countries history - it's a measure of how comfatble a country is with itself is how it deals with former Royal persons.

The stuff about the Gotha is a guideline about etiquette and trust me it's still taken very seriously in Royal circles. how you live your life is up you - philanthropy and humantianirisim is always good, as is being involved with improving and promoting your countries image abroad is also a nice thing to do - just avoid being seen as too Jetset as thats the kiss of death to your credibility as that's part of why so many formerly reinging royals have become an easy punchline because many of them don't have proper work to occupy themselves.
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  #58  
Old 07-24-2016, 03:56 AM
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I'm not overlooking those things Laurels, and I know ex King Constantine for example has been supported by many loyal followers in the decades since the Greek monarchy was abolished and he in his turn helped Greeks in Britain and served as a beacon of hope to Greek royalists.

I was being a bit flippant in my response in the above post but really the question is posed by the thread. How long can it go on for?

Is Crown Prince Pavlos of Greece's eldest grandson going to hand the torch to his grandson and he to his? Will Georgi Romanov, the male claimant to the Russian throne die a contented old man knowing that his great grandson will carry on his role?

As a history buff, I adore royalty in all its forms and I'm a confirmed monarchist, but really, does a monarchy go on into perpetuity when the last person to be a king or Emperor was one's great, great, great, great grandfather? We aren't at that stage yet with some, (Michael of Romania for example is still with us and was King) but in the future....?
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  #59  
Old 07-24-2016, 04:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
thanks!! It isn't a v considered opinion but I just am feeling it.. I think an ex King, it is polite to use the title, esp if he did his best.. and maybe his kids, but when it comes to grandchildren no. And If theres no hope of restoration, give up using the title and call yourself Mr VOn Hapsburg...
If the German royals still have some land, they can just use a lesser noble title and administer their estates..
So, His Grace Maurice FitzGerald, the 9th Duke of Leinster must adapt "a lesser title" because fate meant that his family could not maintain their Downton Abbey-esque estates?

So His Excellency Don Marco von Hohenlohe-Langenburg y Medina Fernández de Córdoba, the 19th (!) Duke of Medinaceli, has to give up that immensely illustrious title because his predecessor has put all the family's treasures in a Fundación, so he does not own the properties himself?

A peerage is not corresponding with money, a bankrupt Earl Spencer is still an Earl Spencer.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:35 AM
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Yes, he is, and to be proud of one's family line and ancestral achievements is wonderful.

However, sometimes people have to deal with the hand life has dealt them and if (because of circumstances) His Excellency Don Marco, the 19th Duke of Medinacelli or his equivalent ended up in a tiny council flat somewhere, with an oil painting or two, it would not only be immensely sad but it would also draw a certain amount of ridicule from his neighbours were he to emphasise the grandeur of his ancestry. And if his grandson went to a local state school and used a title there, I hate to think of the teasing he would face.

By the way, I read years ago that a Viscount from a very old family was serving in the Met (London Metropolitan Police) in the 1980's. He was an Inspector. None of his colleagues knew of his title until after his retirement. He was proud of his family and heritage but felt it would be a bar to his life as a policeman. He cut his cloth accordingly.
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