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  #1  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:03 PM
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Thoughts on a possible United Scandinavia, United Iberia, CANZUK, and Benelux

There have been talks about possibly being a Nordic Federation/United Scandinavia in the future, what are your opinions on this my fellow monarchists?

Should a theoretical United Scandinavia operate like the Holy Roman Empire where the monarch of Scandinavia be elected? Or should there simply be a hereditary dynasty like any other European and East Asian monarchy? If there is going to be a single dynasty in a United/Federated Kingdom of Scandinavia should it be under the Danish, the Norwegian or the Swedish Royal Family and why? Also should Iceland and Finland be included in this United Scandinavia/Nordic Federation (they are republics after all)?

As for Benelux, the economic and military quasi union of the Kingdom of Belgium, Kingdom of the Netherlands and the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, what do you think the future of the organization is going to be like? Could there actually be a King/Queen of Benelux in the future and what royal house do you think should have the honor if one of the three dynasties of the three nations gets the position of being Royal House of Benelux? Or do you guys and girls think that it should operate like the Holy Roman Empire with an elected monarch or maybe Benelux should retain statue quo with the head of states?

Also how about the idea of a United Iberia under Spain in the future once the Catalonian mess is cleaned up, let's face it there is never going to be a Catalan Republic guys.

Or what about the ideas of CANZUK, great monarchy power that could potentially include the rest of the Commonwealth Realm or possibly even some neighboring republics like Fiji, Ireland, Malta, Guyana, Secychelles and other other former Commonwealth Realm states/former colonies? Huh, Huh?

Are my thoughts interesting or do I just seem like a fool wasting everyone's time?

-Frozen Royalist
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  #2  
Old 11-23-2017, 02:33 PM
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Not a chance!
Politically totally unpalatable.
There is no public wish for a new Nordic Union. The Nordic council, which is about very limited political counseling and co-operation is a joke.

And under which crown?
The Norwegians will not give up one of their most prominent symbols of independence.
The Danes with a monarchy going back more than a 1000 years and having a very strong national feeling are not going to give up their independence.
The Swedes might be those who would be most in favor of this suggestion, but only if Sweden is in the driving seat.
And then there are Iceland and Finland, who very much consider themselves Nordic countries. Being subservient to a (fairly distant) monarch? Nah.

It would take something very dramatic to change the current set up. Like the total collapse of EU. In which case a Baltic trading and political loose confederation might be one among several options.

So there is no chance of a Nordic Union in any foreseeable future.
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Old 11-23-2017, 02:44 PM
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As far as i understood, those who wants a Nordic Union meant like an alternate option to the European Union as the Nordic Countries shares a lot more together and would have easier to cooperate if it was just them. I don't know if it's a good idea. I doubt it will ever happen. It would mean that Sweden, Denmark and Finland would have to leave the European Union voluntarily to get into such a Nordic Union. No, it won't happen.

I don't think there has ever been talk of making all 5 Nordic countries to One big country. It wouldn't work. There is too much differences for that. And i don't think the people in any of the 5 countries is interested at all in such a union.

But if i would have to choose one head of state for such a fictional country......It would be Prince Christoph of Schleswig-Holstein. The Head of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. That would both avoid a conflict between the current 3 Royal Families about who should take the throne and still give a lot of Royal History.
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Old 11-23-2017, 03:06 PM
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One monarch for the Benelux countries: there has been no talk, discussion or ideas in this direction at all; imo it is more feasible that the monarchies become republics tham that there will be one monarchy.
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  #5  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:27 PM
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I very much doubt the *putative* EU superstate would brook such an idea...
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  #6  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:40 PM
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My response to Frozen Royalist:

1. Not going to happen.

2. No one wants it (at least not in this country).

3. Not possible politically.

And from a norwegian perspective:

1. As Muhler wrote, the Danes have a very strong national feeling, but I will argue that the Norwegians have an even stronger national feeling (just take the May 17th celebrations, we don't see anything like that in other countries).

2. We have a monarch (King Harald V) who is more popular (personaly) than QMII, Carl Gustaf, Frederik and Victoria.

3. Norway is the most beautiful country in the world, the best country to live in (according to many measurements and experts) and a country who sits on huge resources.

So we are fine as we are here in Norway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
But if i would have to choose one head of state for such a fictional country......It would be Prince Christoph of Schleswig-Holstein. The Head of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. That would both avoid a conflict between the current 3 Royal Families about who should take the throne and still give a lot of Royal History.
1. Norwegians would never have accepted no other monarch than Harald V.

2. After his death: I have my problems with Haakon, but Norwegians would not have accepted any other monarch.
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  #7  
Old 11-23-2017, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
My response to Frozen Royalist:

1. Not going to happen.

2. No one wants it (at least not in this country).

3. Not possible politically.

And from a norwegian perspective:

1. As Mulher wrote, the Danes have a very strong national feeling, but I will argue that the Norwegians have an even stronger national feeling (just take the May 17th celebrations, we don't see anything like that in other countries).

2. We have a monarch (King Harald V) who is more popular (personaly) than QMII, Carl Gustaf, Frederik and Victoria.

3. Norway is the most beautiful country in the world, the best country to live in (according to many measurements and experts) and a country who sits on huge resources.

So we are fine as we are here in Norway.



1. Norwegians would never have accepted no other monarch than Harald V.

2. After his death: I have my problems with Haakon, but Norwegians would not have accepted any other monarch.
In a FICTIONAL world as i said.....In the real world this will never happen. It's more likely that all monarchies will dissapear before that super-country happens.

Actually i am from Sweden and would not have anything against your King Harald ruling my country too haha. I know that many Swedes agree with me on that one. I have nothing against Carl Gustaf. His life has not been an easy ride and he had no choice but to become King way too young and inexperienced and i think that has haunted him his entire life. But Harald has something that C G lacks. Something i can't put my finger on but that makes him very natural, warm, relaxed in his role and more easy to like. After his death, Haralds goddaughter Crown Princess Victoria can take over both our countries :-D

Norway might very well have the most beautiful nature on planet earth. Quite expensive to live in (quality is not free) but beautiful. No one should argue against that. And a hopeless competitior in cross country skiing that mostly wins
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Old 11-23-2017, 04:07 PM
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The Benelux countries have been together under the Dukes of Burgundy, under the Spanish Habsburgers and under King Willem I of the Netherlands. The Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg was in a personal union with the Dutch Crown until the grandmother of Princess Beatrix assumed the throne.

However the Benelux, with 29 million and a concentrated economic power, would make a powerful bloc in between the two biggest EU-countries (Germany and France) a Republic of the United Netherlands is far more likely than a return to the Kingdom of the (United) Netherlands including the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg.

On the surface the Dutch monarchy looks safe but my gut feeling is that this throne will collapse earlier than the Belgian or Spanish one. This has nothing to do with unpopularity or dislike but with the simple fundamental question: do you like to elect your own head of state, or not. Nothing revolutionary. All will go peaceful but my feeling is the Dutch throne and the Swedish throne are the two wobbly ones. Again: very popular individuals but I think the Dutch and Swedes will -in the end- go for the simple principles of democracy and equality and end the monarchy and the nobility.

In no any of the examples (Scandinavia, Benelux, etc.) I see any union as a monarchy.
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Old 11-23-2017, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Benelux countries have been together under the Dukes of Burgundy, under the Spanish Habsburgers and under King Willem I of the Netherlands. The Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg was in a personal union with the Dutch Crown until the grandmother of Princess Beatrix assumed the throne.

However the Benelux, with 29 million and a concentrated economic power, would make a powerful bloc in between the two biggest EU-countries (Germany and France) a Republic of the United Netherlands is far more likely than a return to the Kingdom of the (United) Netherlands including the Grand-Duchy of Luxembourg.

On the surface the Dutch monarchy looks safe but my gut feeling is that this throne will collapse earlier than the Belgian or Spanish one. This has nothing to do with unpopularity or dislike but with the simple fundamental question: do you like to elect your own head of state, or not. Nothing revolutionary. All will go peaceful but my feeling is the Dutch throne and the Swedish throne are the two wobbly ones. Again: very popular individuals but I think the Dutch and Swedes will -in the end- go for the simple principles of democracy and equality and end the monarchy and the nobility.

In no any of the examples (Scandinavia, Benelux, etc.) I see any union as a monarchy.
I don't think the swedish throne will collapse in a foreseeble future but i am not sure that it will remain forever. Crown Princess Victoria may be the most popular heir to the throne in the whole world. She is extremely popular here and would according to all opinion polls even win a presidential election by a huge margin, should it be neccesary. Most people here in Sweden see no other serious candidate then her as the next head of State. When we think about being a republic here in Sweden, we think of politicians as Presidents. And the disdain for politicians is extremly huge here. So i don't think it will happen in a foreseeble future, though i don't say it won't happen at all.

I have no doubts that Crown Princess Victoria will become Queen but wether Princess Estelle will ever inherit the throne from her mother or not is an another question....
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Old 11-23-2017, 04:43 PM
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I will go as far as to claim that Scandinavia ends not at the Danish-German border, but through the main strait going through Denmark.
In Copenhagen there is a closer sense of affiliation with the rest of Scandinavia. (Read: Sweden).
But in the western half of Denmark we orient south, towards Germany and the rest of Europe, as well as west towards Britain and to a lesser degree north towards Norway.
We don't feel particular European, or even pro-EU, oh no! Not at all. But we are pragmatic. South and west is where the money is. While in eastern Denmark they orient north and east towards Sweden and the Baltic.

I'm in no way suggesting Denmark would split up, but we have two more and more autonomous powerhouses here. One in and around Copenhagen and the second along the east coast of Jutland, going in different directions.
Why is that? Well, as a Jutlander myself I'll say it's because too many interest groups, media and decision makers in Copenhagen, consider anything 30 km south and west of Copenhagen as "hill billy land" where people often only have on pair of grandparents. And having Sweden right next door, there is really not tat much interest in increasing the east-west infrastructure inside Denmark.
In the west of Denmark there is an increasing feeling of: screw Copenhagen! We'll manage on our own!

That is very much reflected in Belgium and perhaps to a lesser degree in the Netherlands. In Belgium reinforced by having two different (main) languages, and as such two cultures and two sets of identities.

But also in Sweden. Sweden consists very much of Stockholm and to a considerable extent, the perhaps more Europe-oriented Göteborg (Gothenburg) while in southern Sweden they yell towards Stockholm: Hellooo, anybody there? Answer the phone, please! - and they are left with a feeling that no one is answering, so they orient themselves towards Denmark, particularly Copenhagen.

- So there is a micro cosmos of diverging interests and views, even in small countries.
So looking at say Scandinavia or the Benelux countries as similar entities is equivalent to saying that Louisiana and Vermont is basically the same thing.
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Old 11-23-2017, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
In a FICTIONAL world as i said.....In the real world this will never happen. It's more likely that all monarchies will dissapear before that super-country happens.
Yes, I know. I was just saying there are no way that Norwegians had acepted another monarch than Haakon. And the same goes for Frederik in Denmark and Victoria in Sweden.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
Actually i am from Sweden and would not have anything against your King Harald ruling my country too haha. I know that many Swedes agree with me on that one. I have nothing against Carl Gustaf. His life has not been an easy ride and he had no choice but to become King way too young and inexperienced and i think that has haunted him his entire life. But Harald has something that C G lacks. Something i can't put my finger on but that makes him very natural, warm, relaxed in his role and more easy to like. After his death, Haralds goddaughter Crown Princess Victoria can take over both our countries :-D
Yes, he is pretty special that King of ours.

But we have all someone to be proud of. We in Norway have Harald (Sonja is great to BTW), you in Sweden have Victoria, and Denmark have Frederik (and Mary).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
Norway might very well have the most beautiful nature on planet earth. Quite expensive to live in (quality is not free) but beautiful. No one should argue against that. And a hopeless competitior in cross country skiing that mostly wins
Expensive for foreigners? Yes.

For Norwegians? Not really.
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:10 AM
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What transnational idea would unite the Scandinavian countries?
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Old 11-24-2017, 10:50 AM
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What transnational idea would unite the Scandinavian countries?
Necessity.

Political, economic and military necessity.
Backed up by shared values and a shared culture.
Less so for shared national reasons. Keep in mind that Denmark and Sweden holds the world record in the number of wars fought between two countries. - About once every generation for 600 years.
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Old 11-24-2017, 11:27 AM
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Necessity might be viewed as a valid reason. That would be enough for a short period of time. At the same time, democratic liberal values do not make EU viable (infighting, inert bureaucracy in Brussels, economic inequality by trying a new concept "Two Speed Europe") .
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Old 11-24-2017, 12:54 PM
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Okay so a United Scandinavia wouldn't really work and my Benelux thoughts pretty much seem infeasible to you guys. What about the ideas of a United Iberia in the future or CANZUK/or just a stronger Commonwealth in general. Any positive thoughts or just more negative thoughts and how republicanism will "dominate the world" in the future.

-Frozen Royalist

P.S. Look I know things may seem down but we need to find a sort of bright side to things my fellow monarchists. I know the restoration movements aren't exactly ideal at the moment but that doesn't mean monarchism is just going to disappear completely because of a bunch of blokes using mean comments on the internet or just simple 5 man protests demanding a referendum. I understand the Dutch and Swedish monarchies' popularities aren't ideal but you don't see debates happening too often in the national parliaments so I honestly don't see the Dutch and Swedish monarchies disappearing in my lifetime, I'm currently 21 as of today by the way. Besides as Archduke Karl von Habsburg once said "anything can happen in the future". Who knows maybe our patience will finally payoff in the next five or ten or twenty years, patience is a virtue after all.
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