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  #221  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:08 AM
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In most modern-day monarchies anno 2015 I guess there would be a republic earlier than making an extramarital child a successor.

Imagine that King Juan Carlos has fathered an extramarital child with a lady somewhere (there are people who claim to be Juan Carlos' child) and something dramatic would happen, I think Spain would earlier be a republic than going to Mr X in Marbella or Mrs Y in Bilbao, legalize them, create them Infante / Infanta de España, give them the surname Borbón and name it all. I do not see that happen. It would open Pandora's Box. No way.

Agree. In this time and age a "King Ralph" scenario would be out of the question.
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  #222  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:09 AM
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Out of Wedlock Children and Succession Rights

The House of Braganza is an illegitimate line of the previous royal House of Aviz which in turn is an illegitimate line of the previous royal House of Burgundy. John of Aviz was the illegitimate half-brother of the previous king Ferdinand I and was elected king by the Cortes (before Ferdinands daughter Beatrice) to preserve the country's independence from Castille. Centuries later in 1640 John of Braganza (although of illegitimate descent from the extinct House of Aviz the duke was seen as first in line to the throne) was proclaimed King during the uprising against Spain who had ruled Portugal for the last sixty years.


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  #223  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:19 AM
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Agree. In this time and age a "King Ralph" scenario would be out of the question.

Even in King Ralph, it took the whole royal family to be wiped out before they even started to look for the illegitimate Ralph. There are numerous legitimate heirs for most monarchies. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that could be in a potential King Ralph scenario is Japan since they limit it to males only but even then they would allow woman on the throne before a illegitimate child.


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  #224  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:21 AM
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Not really.

But as you know when former princess Alexandra remarried, she was made Countess. - So it's a nice little option to have.
The same thing in regards to the Montpezat title. That placated the Prince Consort and leaves a door open should Prince Joachim's children (or at least grandchildren) become commoners some time in the future.
That looks like the same situation as in the Netherlands: "De Koning verleent adeldom" (The King grants nobility). In reality this is more or less a dead letter and new nobility is only created within the Royal House. The last was to the late Prince Friso and to the children of Prince Constantijn, who were created Count (Countess) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg.

For the rest it is about recognition of existing older nobility predating the Kingdom (for an example a title from the Holy Roman Empire or from the Napoleontic era which was used in the Netherlands) and about incorporation of foreign nobility (for an example, a Danish nobleman wants to become a Dutch citizen and requests the incorporation of his Danish title into the Netherlands Nobility). The last elevation into Nobility was for the old patrician family Van Valkenburg (1939).
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  #225  
Old 08-18-2015, 11:52 AM
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Even in King Ralph, it took the whole royal family to be wiped out before they even started to look for the illegitimate Ralph. There are numerous legitimate heirs for most monarchies. The only one I can think of off the top of my head that could be in a potential King Ralph scenario is Japan since they limit it to males only but even then they would allow woman on the throne before a illegitimate child.


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The difference in Japan is that should the situation arise they'd probably pick a male member of the quite numerous formerly imperial family branches that was demoted from their status after WWII. Apparently many of them still bear a grudge and consider themselves royal.


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  #226  
Old 08-19-2015, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
In most modern-day monarchies anno 2015 I guess there would be a republic earlier than making an extramarital child a successor.

Imagine that King Juan Carlos has fathered an extramarital child with a lady somewhere (there are people who claim to be Juan Carlos' child) and something dramatic would happen, I think Spain would earlier be a republic than going to Mr X in Marbella or Mrs Y in Bilbao, legalize them, create them Infante / Infanta de España, give them the surname Borbón and name it all. I do not see that happen. It would open Pandora's Box. No way.

Or even imagine if the older sister of Juan Carlos hadn't renounce her titles... at this point her children would have beeen the current royal family...
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  #227  
Old 08-19-2015, 09:43 AM
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Doesn't Spain still have the male preference primogeniture? So how is an elder sister bumping Juan Carlos? King Felipe has elder sisters too.

Franco hand picked Juan Carlos to be King instead of JC's father who still alive. The father later on renounced his rights.


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  #228  
Old 08-19-2015, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
The only one I can think of off the top of my head that could be in a potential King Ralph scenario is Japan since they limit it to males only but even then they would allow woman on the throne before a illegitimate child.
Actually illegitimate children do have succession rights in Japan. Legitimate sons have precedence over illegitimate (even when older) sons, but an illegitimate son of the Emperor would (should he not have legitimate male children) take precedence over a legitimate brother of the Emperor. In fact, a couple of years ago one of the late Mikasa sons suggested Crown Prince Naruhito should take a concubine to produce an heir.

best wishes Michiru
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  #229  
Old 08-19-2015, 12:20 PM
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Thanks for the educational lesson 😀

That's one of the great things about this forum. All of people around the globe to add to conversations.


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  #230  
Old 08-19-2015, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Michiru-Kaiou View Post
Actually illegitimate children do have succession rights in Japan. Legitimate sons have precedence over illegitimate (even when older) sons, but an illegitimate son of the Emperor would (should he not have legitimate male children) take precedence over a legitimate brother of the Emperor. In fact, a couple of years ago one of the late Mikasa sons suggested Crown Prince Naruhito should take a concubine to produce an heir.

best wishes Michiru
That's interesting, I never knew that (though I'm not that knowledgable about the Japanese Imperial Family to begin with). Have there ever been any illegitimate Emperors?
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  #231  
Old 08-19-2015, 01:56 PM
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Have there ever been any illegitimate Emperors?
From the top of my head: Emperor Meiji, the great-grandfather of the current Emperor Akihito, was the offspring of a concubine.

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  #232  
Old 08-19-2015, 03:09 PM
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Children of concubines and illegitimate children are two different cases.
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  #233  
Old 08-19-2015, 04:27 PM
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Children of concubines and illegitimate children are two different cases.
Heu... no, because both are born outside the legal bond which is 'marriage'. Therefore the term 'illegitimate'. The children of Louis XIV with his maîtresses Louise de la Vallière and Françoise-Athénaïs de Rochechouart de Mortemart were 'bastards' and no legal offspring. The same with the numerous (!) children of King Charles II as a result of all his liaisons with his many mistresses.
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  #234  
Old 08-19-2015, 04:39 PM
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Heu... no, because both are born outside the legal bond which is 'marriage'. Therefore the term 'illegal'. The children of Louis XIV with his maîtresses Louise de la Vallière and Françoise-Athénaïs de Rochechouart de Mortemart were 'bastards' and no legal offspring. The same with the numerous (!) children of King Charles II as a result of all his liaisons with his many mistresses.
Children by concubines are absolutely legal.
European royals don't have and didn't have concubines.
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  #235  
Old 08-19-2015, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Heu... no, because both are born outside the legal bond which is 'marriage'. Therefore the term 'illegal'. The children of Louis XIV with his maîtresses Louise de la Vallière and Françoise-Athénaïs de Rochechouart de Mortemart were 'bastards' and no legal offspring. The same with the numerous (!) children of King Charles II as a result of all his liaisons with his many mistresses.
At least European Kings' "bastard" sons didn't have to worry about their life, having no right to the throne.
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  #236  
Old 08-19-2015, 05:31 PM
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Some societies recognise more than one way to have a legal child. In the Judeo-Christian culture and their offshoot nations the only 'legal' child is born within the bounds of matrimony but in the Middle East and Asia that isn't the case with those born to both wives and concubines as concubines also have legal status as an official partner of the man even if lower than that of the wife/wives.
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  #237  
Old 08-19-2015, 05:36 PM
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Children by concubines are absolutely legal.
European royals don't have and didn't have concubines.

In fact many of them did have a maîtresse-en-titre (Head mistress) and had the children of said mistress legitimised and given titles of nobility. The children of Louis XIV was even considered equal in rank to the Princes du sang (Princes of the royal blood) and married into other branches of the House of Bourbon.
The children of some of Charles II mistresses were famously also given titles and in Scandinavia the families of Danneskiold-Samsoe, Gyllenhielm, Wasaborg and Hessenstein (the last three extinct) all descended from royal extramarital affairs. The House of Danneskiold-Samsoe ranks in the first class of the Danish Order of precedence together with government ministers, the Counts of Rosenborg and the Countess of Fredriksborg.


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  #238  
Old 08-19-2015, 05:58 PM
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In fact many of them did have a maîtresse-en-titre (Head mistress) and had the children of said mistress legitimised and given titles of nobility. The children of Louis XIV was even considered equal in rank to the Princes du sang (Princes of the royal blood) and married into other branches of the House of Bourbon.
The children of some of Charles II mistresses were famously also given titles and in Scandinavia the families of Danneskiold-Samsoe, Gyllenhielm, Wasaborg and Hessenstein (the last three extinct) all descended from royal extramarital affairs. The House of Danneskiold-Samsoe ranks in the first class of the Danish Order of precedence together with government ministers, the Counts of Rosenborg and the Countess of Fredriksborg.
They had mistresses, not concubines.
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  #239  
Old 08-19-2015, 06:14 PM
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Children by concubines are absolutely legal.
European royals don't have and didn't have concubines.
Not concubines as such, but certainly official mistresses. And in some cases formalized. I.e. "married to the left hand".
That meant an official status for the mistress with children being officially acknowledged.
It also meant that the mistress was guaranteed (at least that was the idea and in fact mostly respected. Especially if the widowed mistress moved out of sight and lived discreetly) a suitable station and pension if you like, should the man (mostly a king) die before her.
Several Danish kings were "married to the left hand".

It also meant that the court did not have to pretend they didn't know about the king's mistress, that included the queen. She just had to accept the situation.
Very practical come to think of it. The marriage to the right hand (the queen) was for dynastic and political reasons. The marriage to the left hand (the mistress) was for love. - And of course the happiness and well being of the king is all important, right?!?

The (Lutheran) church didn't like it much, but it took a couple of hundred years after the Reformation before the concept of officially acknowledged mistresses finally went out of use. - Well, almost...
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  #240  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Not concubines as such, but certainly official mistresses. And in some cases formalized. I.e. "married to the left hand".
That meant an official status for the mistress with children being officially acknowledged.
It also meant that the mistress was guaranteed (at least that was the idea and in fact mostly respected. Especially if the widowed mistress moved out of sight and lived discreetly) a suitable station and pension if you like, should the man (mostly a king) die before her.
Several Danish kings were "married to the left hand".

It also meant that the court did not have to pretend they didn't know about the king's mistress, that included the queen. She just had to accept the situation.
Very practical come to think of it. The marriage to the right hand (the queen) was for dynastic and political reasons. The marriage to the left hand (the mistress) was for love. - And of course the happiness and well being of the king is all important, right?!?

The (Lutheran) church didn't like it much, but it took a couple of hundred years after the Reformation before the concept of officially acknowledged mistresses finally went out of use. - Well, almost...

While an official mistress may be better than a regular mistress, and the children born to an official one may be held higher than the children born to just any old mistress, the fact remains that in Europe, the children of a mistress were not as high as the children of a wife, nor was the mistress comparable to the wife. The children of an official mistress in Europe might be given titles and good marriages and belong to the nobility, but they didn't have succession rights.

The children of a concubine in the east, however, have a higher status than that. They are accorded a status owing from their father's position, regardless of their legitimacy. They are in the line of succession and can become monarch - and do so before their uncles. They might be less than their legitimate brothers, but they're more than an illegitimate European would be.
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