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  #201  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:19 PM
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But they can be legitimized and placed in succession too. Albert of Monaco's grandmother Charlotte was illegitimate and legitimized to become heir. Manuel of Bavaria was legitimized by his parents' marriage and put into succession. It depends, it differs from family.
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  #202  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:25 PM
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I haven't looked into the legal issues in any depth, but I don't see how the UK can long continue to discriminate against the children of peers born out of wedlock if their parents subsequently marry.

The UK Government website states it has a policy of equality and, in particular, that:

"We want the UK to be a leader in equality and human rights. At our best, we are defined by our tolerance, freedom and fairness."

It is hardly fair if the son of a peer is unable to inherit his father's title simply because his parents were not married at the moment he was born. If a marriage ceremony took place while the woman was in labor, the child would be legitimate and would inherit, but if they married moments after the child had left its mother's body and the umbilical cord was cut, he would not. And if a child is born to a woman during her marriage even though fathered by another man, as long as the husband accepts the child as his then the child will inherit his titles.

I applaud the fact that Monaco allows subsequently legitimised children to inherit.
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  #203  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:31 PM
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However, in the initial poster's question, the parents never married. Therefore, the simple answer is 'no'.
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  #204  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:44 PM
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So due to the fact that they never wed, we are not qualified for any title? I am obviously not knowledgeable on any of this, so I'm not quite sure how titles and everything in the royal family work. Is the passing of titles some sort of law, or is it more of a custom?
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  #205  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mermaid1962 View Post
However, in the initial poster's question, the parents never married. Therefore, the simple answer is 'no'.
Correct. And Ish provided that simple answer in the second post in this thread. However laws change and some are retrospective. It is possible that the time will come when the descendants of a peer through an illegitimate offspring may be held entitled to inherit the title.
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  #206  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:50 PM
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Passing titles down a line in the UK is governed by a legal instrument called 'Letters Patent' as well as 'common law'.


Illegitimate children have no rights to inherit titles in the UK. They may, if recognized, have some rights to monetary inheritance but only that child or grandchildren born while the 'father' was still alive to recognize them. They would have no claim generations later.


With regards to the first post - the current generation have no claims to any titles etc. They are in the same boat as many, many other people throughout history - the descendants of an illegitimate child. They can't be in the line of succession to titles or the throne due to the parents not being married.
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  #207  
Old 08-17-2015, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
Correct. And Ish provided that simple answer in the second post in this thread. However laws change and some are retrospective. It is possible that the time will come when the descendants of a peer through an illegitimate offspring may be held entitled to inherit the title.
First they have to allow women, legitimately born, I suspect.

There is also the issue of does the father have to acknowledge the child freely etc?

What would happen if say Prince Charles had an illegitimate son in the 1970s that no one now knows about? Then they change the law to allow an illegitimate child to inherit. This child comes forward and claims that he should be Charles' heir instead of William? How would people feel about that.

What would be the case, if say it turned out by DNA testing that Tom Parker-Bowles was actually Charles' (I for one don't believe that for a minute but this is hypothetically) - would he now be the heir to Charles as King rather than William?

That is why they don't allow illegitimate children to inherit.
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  #208  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
First they have to allow women, legitimately born, I suspect.

There is also the issue of does the father have to acknowledge the child freely etc?

What would happen if say Prince Charles had an illegitimate son in the 1970s that no one now knows about? Then they change the law to allow an illegitimate child to inherit. This child comes forward and claims that he should be Charles' heir instead of William? How would people feel about that.

What would be the case, if say it turned out by DNA testing that Tom Parker-Bowles was actually Charles' (I for one don't believe that for a minute but this is hypothetically) - would he now be the heir to Charles as King rather than William?

That is why they don't allow illegitimate children to inherit.

I was going to say exactly this.

I tend to be in favour of legitimatized children born out of wedlock being in lines of succession, but just a general free for all with all illegitimate children is problematic.
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  #209  
Old 08-18-2015, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Anonymous517 View Post
So due to the fact that they never wed, we are not qualified for any title? I am obviously not knowledgeable on any of this, so I'm not quite sure how titles and everything in the royal family work. Is the passing of titles some sort of law, or is it more of a custom?

Exactly.

Titles are inherited through law in all realms. Some allow for children who are born out of wedlock but later legitimatized by their parent subsequent marriage to inherit titles or use courtesy titles, but none allow for illegitimate children to inherit titles.
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  #210  
Old 08-18-2015, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Ceallach View Post
But they can be legitimized and placed in succession too. Albert of Monaco's grandmother Charlotte was illegitimate and legitimized to become heir. Manuel of Bavaria was legitimized by his parents' marriage and put into succession. It depends, it differs from family.

Charlotte was adopted by her biological father (who had no other children) in order for her to be able to inherit. She later renounced her succession rights in favour of her son, Rainier.

Until the early 2000s, Monaco's succession laws allowed for adopted children to succeed, but not illegitimate ones. When Rainier changed the succession rules he did away with allowing adopted children to inherit and allowed legitimatized children to marry, although I believe that a child in Monaco can only be legitimatized if they weren't born of adultery; as such Alexandre could theoretically inherit if his parents married, but Jazmin couldn't.
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  #211  
Old 08-18-2015, 03:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
First they have to allow women, legitimately born, I suspect.

There is also the issue of does the father have to acknowledge the child freely etc?

What would happen if say Prince Charles had an illegitimate son in the 1970s that no one now knows about? Then they change the law to allow an illegitimate child to inherit. This child comes forward and claims that he should be Charles' heir instead of William? How would people feel about that.

What would be the case, if say it turned out by DNA testing that Tom Parker-Bowles was actually Charles' (I for one don't believe that for a minute but this is hypothetically) - would he now be the heir to Charles as King rather than William?

That is why they don't allow illegitimate children to inherit.
The answer is no, because of the rules. But in my opinion this serves to illustrate the artificial and anachronistic nature of the whole system of peerages and royalty, which - if it is not blindingly obvious - I do not hold in high regard.

These days illegitimate children have the same right to inherit the fee simple estate of a parent who dies intestate as do that person's legitimate children. They share equally on intestacy and they have the right to make claims against the estate if the parent made a will but didn't provide for them. They can also now succeed as an heir under an entailed estate (though I am not sure about the position of a woman in a claim against an estate where the original grant was to A and the male heirs of his body). At the present time they just cannot claim property which is limited to devolve along with a dignity or title of honour if the letters patent limit the succession to the heirs of his body "lawfully begotten", but that could be cured by legislation.
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  #212  
Old 08-18-2015, 03:20 AM
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It depends on the country. In the Netherlands, in Germany and in other states a natural child can request the Court of Justice to be known with his/her father's title and surname.

The two extra-marital daughters of the late Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands (father of Queen Beatrix, grandfather of King Willem-Alexander) were recognized and shared equally in their father's inheritance. The two ladies in this example (Alicia Hala de Bielefelde and Alexia Bénédicte Irina Manuella Olivia Grinda-Lejeune) did not request to become known as Prinzessin zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, their father's title.

The current Duke of Parma has a son born long before his marriage with Anne-Marie Gualthérie van Weezel. This extramarital son, Carlos Hugo Roderik Sybren Klynstra, can request to become known as Prince de Bourbon de Parme with the prefix HRH. So far the (in the meantime adult) son has not requested the Court of Justice to be known with his father's title and surname. By the way, in this last case the current Duke has reached an agreement with the mother of Carlos that there would be no formal recognition of paternity. Carlos jr. will not share in the Duke's inheritance unless he takes steps to contest the legal document. His mother is a step-daughter of the Count van Rechteren-Limpurg. They own several castles and estates so the extra-marital princely-sprout-without-title has grown up in quite privilèged circustances anyway...

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  #213  
Old 08-18-2015, 03:22 AM
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It depends on the country I guess.

In Denmark all royal titles (except the Crown Prince/ss) and all new noble titles are created by the monarch only.
So in theory the child could get a title, but the child has absolutely no right to a title.
In the 1600's for example acknowledged illegitimate children of Christian IV were given the noble title of Gyldenløve = Golden Lion.
The rest, well, too bad.
- Why that was so is a long story.

So to sum up: Until there are two Thursdays in a week your descendant here has virtually zero chance of a title.
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  #214  
Old 08-18-2015, 03:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Until the early 2000s, Monaco's succession laws allowed for adopted children to succeed, but not illegitimate ones. When Rainier changed the succession rules he did away with allowing adopted children to inherit and allowed legitimatized children to marry, although I believe that a child in Monaco can only be legitimatized if they weren't born of adultery; as such Alexandre could theoretically inherit if his parents married, but Jazmin couldn't.
When Louis only had a illegitimate daughter, he found a way to make her heir. Circumstances can lead to that and changes in law. The same countries have changed laws to make female succession possible when someone only has daughters.

However, presently in Monaco an illegitimate child has no succession rights (Jazmin, Alexandre, Raphael, Camille) until their parents marry (Sasha).
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  #215  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:06 AM
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In the proposed scenario, the person isn't the illegitimate child of the Royal but several generations down.

If you found out you are the great grandson of Edward Prince of Wales and Lady Thelma Furness. Your grandfather was born in 1934 and smuggled away to a family in the country to raise. You aren't going to BP and kicking Elizabeth off throne become King. She isn't going to make you Duke of Windsor just because of your Royal descent.


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  #216  
Old 08-18-2015, 08:38 AM
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My goodness just think of the dozens upon dozens of descendants from some of the lines of the English Kings....illegitimate lines. If they all thought they were entitled to something because of their blood tie.....



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  #217  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:11 AM
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... I've always thought about possible and dramatic changes if illegitimate children would have taken up the throne... If a first born, out of wedlock (regardless of the gender) would have be King or Queen... Imagine that! I think we would have different line of succession even today!
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  #218  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:54 AM
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It depends on the country I guess.

In Denmark all royal titles (except the Crown Prince/ss) and all new noble titles are created by the monarch only.
[....]
Is there still an active ennoblement policy in Denmark, that means: does Queen Margrethe still create new nobles outside the royal family? The last creation was the Greve/Komtesse de Montpezat title, I thought.
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  #219  
Old 08-18-2015, 09:59 AM
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... I've always thought about possible and dramatic changes if illegitimate children would have taken up the throne... If a first born, out of wedlock (regardless of the gender) would have be King or Queen... Imagine that! I think we would have different line of succession even today!
In most modern-day monarchies anno 2015 I guess there would be a republic earlier than making an extramarital child a successor.

Imagine that King Juan Carlos has fathered an extramarital child with a lady somewhere (there are people who claim to be Juan Carlos' child) and something dramatic would happen, I think Spain would earlier be a republic than going to Mr X in Marbella or Mrs Y in Bilbao, legalize them, create them Infante / Infanta de España, give them the surname Borbón and name it all. I do not see that happen. It would open Pandora's Box. No way.

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  #220  
Old 08-18-2015, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Is there still an active ennoblement policy in Denmark, that means: does Queen Margrethe still create new nobles outside the royal family? The last creation was the Greve/Komtesse de Montpezat title, I thought.
Not really.

But as you know when former princess Alexandra remarried, she was made Countess. - So it's a nice little option to have.
The same thing in regards to the Montpezat title. That placated the Prince Consort and leaves a door open should Prince Joachim's children (or at least grandchildren) become commoners some time in the future.
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