Royal Women with Illegitimate Children


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I hope it is clear that I do not represent myself as never being wrong. ;) However, as the concept that the House of Wettin continues to have an official part in legislating for the federal republic of Germany (as that is the part of my post which you quoted and refer to as wrong) is contrary to my previous understanding, I would appreciate a reference in addition to the bare statement that I am wrong.

ETA: As a reference for my own statement, here is a European Union court ruling noting that titles of nobility, as such, are abolished and their descent, as names, is regulated by "the German Law on personal status".


I don't think JR76 is arguing that the House of Wettin has the power to change the family name laws of the Federal Republic of Germany. In other words, the House of Wettin cannot prevent Xenia from using the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen if the law entitles her to do so. However, his point was that, as an internal and totally private matter, the head of the Royal House can decide whether she is a member of the said house or not regardless of the family name she carries.



The fact that the Royal House is not legally acknowledged by the Republic, except in the form of a family name, doesn't mean that the Royal House is extinct or no longer exists, as most monarchists/legitimists would normally argue.
 
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I don't think JR76 is arguing that the House of Wettin has the power to change the family name laws of the Federal Republic of Germany. In other words, the House of Wettin cannot prevent Xenia from using the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen if the law entitles her to do so. However, his point was that, as an internal and totally private matter, the head of the Royal House can decide whether she is a member of the said house or not regardless of the family name she carries.



The fact that the Royal House is not legally acknowledged by the Republic, except in the form of a family name, doesn't mean that the Royal House is extinct or no longer exists, as most monarchists/legitimists would normally argue.


The comment of mine which JR76 took issue with stated "the House of Wettin is a private family" with no regulatory powers, and not that it ceased to exist, and was made in reply to a post saying that Xenia and her sister "are most definitely not princesses". Therefore, my understanding is that his argument extends further than what you have written, although it is possible that my understanding is wrong, of course.
 
What I read into JR76's point is that he was saying that you're wrong in conflating the name and title. Under the current legal regime in Germany, one may possess Prinzessin von Sachsen as a surname, but not as a state-recognized title.


Having the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen, in itself, no more makes a person a princess than Martin Luther King, Jr.'s surname made him a king.
 
This Xenia girl of Saxonia is royal by name and blood (the mother is always and at least sure...).
Having royal blood is an inane criterion. Yes, she has royal blood; in some quantity, so do all other Europeans, probably all Asians, and most, if not all, Africans (and including, for this purpose, residents of the Americas, Australia, etc. who are of European, Asian, and African extract as Europeans, Asians, and Africans).
 
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:previous:

A prevalent argument in opposition to the descent of family names or titles through a maternal line is that the "blood-line" is allegedly broken. I suppose Victor's allusion was to that, given his reference to maternal certainty.

What I read into JR76's point is that he was saying that you're wrong in conflating the name and title. Under the current legal regime in Germany, one may possess Prinzessin von Sachsen as a surname, but not as a state-recognized title.

I should perhaps have addressed it with more clarity, but I agreed with this point in post #57:

Titles are recognized by the republic in the form of surnames. I suppose you refer to the fact that titles are not recognized in the form of titles, but in that case, the same applies to the "legitimate" members of the House of Wettin.

Having the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen, in itself, no more makes a person a princess than Martin Luther King, Jr.'s surname made him a king.

German surnames such as Prinzessin von Sachsen are, however, distinguished from the common English surname King by their descent from the state-recognized titles of the monarchies reigning before 1919, and their continued usage as unofficial titles in German society.
 
Thank you, Tatiana Maria #65!

Plus: Where is the line to draw? Only marriaged couples have legitimate children? What is a "real" marriage, the one in the church? (btw I did it always find amusing, how fast the nobility changes from one denomination into another, when they can rise in the ranks by marriage - so, hardcore "spirituality" seems to be not very widespread in this strata.)

Now can one say, like Troy Thompson #64, that we are all royals, what is a nice idea(!) and/or that royalty plays no role anymore... but we are not living at "the end of history" (Francis Fukuyama)! We will see, what the future brings and how the old families and their offspring will do.
 
Plus: Where is the line to draw? Only marriaged couples have legitimate children? What is a "real" marriage, the one in the church? (btw I did it always find amusing, how fast the nobility changes from one denomination into another, when they can rise in the ranks by marriage - so, hardcore "spirituality" seems to be not very widespread in this strata.)
The one legally recognized in their country. Which in some cases could be a combined civil/church wedding and in other cases would require a civil wedding (any subsequent religious wedding does not add to the legality of the marriage). And for many royal and noble families for dynastic purposes it would also require approval by the head of the house.
 
The one legally recognized in their country. Which in some cases could be a combined civil/church wedding and in other cases would require a civil wedding (any subsequent religious wedding does not add to the legality of the marriage). And for many royal and noble families for dynastic purposes it would also require approval by the head of the house.

Yep, but what, if this Xenia of Saxonia girl in question gets pregnant by a super-billionaire and owns after this not only a title but a castle too - in Saxonia! And a large forrest! And horses - horses are important!/s

Unlike the until then real house?

Then the real nobles of the house of Saxonia look like what? Imposters?

I mean, we live in the third millenium after Christ (and His father and mother were not married either)...
 
Not sure what you are trying to get at... It seems the nobility is quite clear among themselves who 'belong' and who 'don't belong' - and wealth is not the main criterion; recognized marriages are.
 
Yep, but what, if this Xenia of Saxonia girl in question gets pregnant by a super-billionaire and owns after this not only a title but a castle too - in Saxonia! And a large forrest! And horses - horses are important!/s

Unlike the until then real house?

Then the real nobles of the house of Saxonia look like what? Imposters?

I mean, we live in the third millenium after Christ (and His father and mother were not married either)...

Being royal has nothing to do with owning a castle, or horses, or having.a lot of money. Royalty is either acquired by birth or by marriage. Either way, a legally recognized marriage or being born of such type of union are normally required.
 
One way to look at it would be that, with the abolition of the German monarchy and the abolition of state recognition of royal and noble titles, the royal and noble houses of Germany effectively became, in addition to being families, private societies that have the right to determine the qualifications of their own members and how membership is attained. While the German state recognizes words such as Prinzessin von Sachsen as surnames, the actual titles have effectively become titles awarded from within the houses to their members, such that no one is a Princess of Saxony, by title, and no one is a member of the House of Wettin, unless the House of Wettin says they are.

Wealth does not matter at all. The only way one becomes a member of the House of Wettin is to be born into it or to marry into it, and even then only under the circumstances determined according to the house laws—In particular, this means that the children of (suo jure) female members of the House of Wettin do not get membership ever (unless the father was also a member of the House of Wettin), and the children of male members are disqualified if they are illegitimate or if the marriage to which they were born was unequal.

It's snobbish, sexist, and steeped in all kinds of backwardness, but that's what you get when you have a society that's organized on the basis of 19th Century Central European aristocratic norms.
 
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It's snobbish, sexist, and steeped in all kinds of backwardness, but that's what you get when you have a society that's organized on the basis of 19th Century Central European aristocratic norms.

Yep, you are right and as you said "unless the House of Wettin says" so, the illegitimate Xenia from the example is no real Princess.

But I am willing to bet and the history proves it, if enough monies come into play, she will be recognized, adopted, made a decent member of the house, whatever.

And why not? She is the daughter of a real Princess after all.
 
I don't think money would ever change things. The old European feudal elite has always snobbishly looked down on the new capitalist elite, seeing even the wealthiest of the haute bourgeoisie as nothing more than vulgar and ostentatious nouveau riche, entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue.

The only thing that I think would have made the German houses change their ways would have been the sort of political pressure that could have only been possible if, rather than overthrowing the German monarchy entirely, the November Revolution instead more firmly implemented parliamentary superiority. There would have likely been a decade thereafter during which the SPD either controlled the government in its own right, or as the leading part of a coalition with the DDP and the DZP. If that happened to have occurred, the SPD would have, as soon as the war was over, probably started taking aim at every manifestation of misogyny and discrimination against illegitimate children in the house laws and laws of succession of the German houses and states.
 
She is illegitimate, which means she may have royal blood but she cant have royal status. And since the German monarchy is long dead it seems academic...
 
She is illegitimate, which means she may have royal blood but she cant have royal status. And since the German monarchy is long dead it seems academic...

I couldn't agree more. :D
 
I don't think money would ever change things. The old European feudal elite has always snobbishly looked down on the new capitalist elite, seeing even the wealthiest of the haute bourgeoisie as nothing more than vulgar and ostentatious nouveau riche, entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue.

Well, that is how they might see themselves or not - and still has a Thyssen (steel) girl married into the Habsburg family, one of Europes finest. And she married not some Prince, but the Chef of the House - just as an example. A lot of english families have their american grandmother from New York and so on. But this is a bit off topic in this thread, since they were all decently married!

But back then came money into the castles and manors via marriage and why not without marriage today? Illegitimate...
 
Well, that is how they might see themselves or not - and still has a Thyssen (steel) girl married into the Habsburg family, one of Europes finest. And she married not some Prince, but the Chef of the House - just as an example. A lot of english families have their american grandmother from New York and so on. But this is a bit off topic in this thread, since they were all decently married!

But back then came money into the castles and manors via marriage and why not without marriage today? Illegitimate...

This is actually a nice topic for another thread. :D
 
Yep, you are right and as you said "unless the House of Wettin says" so, the illegitimate Xenia from the example is no real Princess.

But I am willing to bet and the history proves it, if enough monies come into play, she will be recognized, adopted, made a decent member of the house, whatever.

And why not? She is the daughter of a real Princess after all.

She is still born out of wedlock and most Royal houses in Europe have always had the rule that illegitimate children while they may be recogised by their parents and treated as family, are not royal by status, don't inherit the royal rank or titles.
 
Well, that is how they might see themselves or not - and still has a Thyssen (steel) girl married into the Habsburg family, one of Europes finest. And she married not some Prince, but the Chef of the House - just as an example. A lot of english families have their american grandmother from New York and so on. But this is a bit off topic in this thread, since they were all decently married!

But back then came money into the castles and manors via marriage and why not without marriage today? Illegitimate...

The Thyssen girl was actually a baroness already, wasn’t she ? Besides, you are comparing apples and oranges. Royals from reigning families in Europe now frequently marry commoners with a middle-class background. There are only rare examples nowadays of royals who marry members of the nobility ( e.g. Philippe and Mathilde, Guillaume and Stéphanie) or marry other royals (e.g. Alois and Sophie).

What is being discussed in this thread , however, is not a commoner becoming royal by a legitimate marriage, which again is quite common these days ( Letizia, Maxima, Mary, Kate, Camilla, Mette-Marit, Daniel, Sofia, Claire, Marie, Laurentine, etc) . Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house, which is not possible in most monarchies and, in fact, is barred by law in many existing monarchies where illegitimate children are excluded from the line of succession to the throne.
 
The Thyssen girl was actually a baroness already, wasn’t she ? Besides, you are comparing apples and oranges. Royals from reigning families in Europe now frequently marry commoners with a middle-class background. There are only rare examples nowadays of royals who marry members of the nobility ( e.g. Philippe and Mathilde, Guillaume and Stéphanie) or marry other royals (e.g. Alois and Sophie).

What is being discussed in this thread , however, is not a commoner becoming royal by a legitimate marriage, which again is quite common these days ( Letizia, Maxima, Mary, Kate, Camilla, Mette-Marit, Daniel, Sofia, Claire, Marie, Laurentine, etc) . Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house, which is not possible in most monarchies and, in fact, is barred by law in many existing monarchies where illegitimate children are excluded from the line of succession to the throne.
True and it does not sound like other members of the RF think of this woman as being in any sense a member of the family or Royal
 
The Thyssen girl was actually a baroness already, wasn’t she ?

Oh c'mon, I was answering to the insinuation, that the royal circles are snobbish and see the rich as vulgar, "entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue"!

Royals from reigning families in Europe now frequently marry commoners with a middle-class background.

Thank you, for supporting my argument! :flowers:

Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house...

We were discussing this Xenia of Saxonia, right? And my point was, with some monies her status could sure be healed.
 
Oh c'mon, I was answering to the insinuation, that the royal circles are snobbish and see the rich as vulgar, "entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue"!



Thank you, for supporting my argument! :flowers:



We were discussing this Xenia of Saxonia, right? And my point was, with some monies her status could sure be healed.

How? Money would not make her a Princess and there is in any case no Monarchy in Germany
 
If money allowed someone to become a royal, Bill Gates would be the Supreme Emperor of Earth.



Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, the illegitimate half-uncle of former Spanish King Juan Carlos, who was granted the right to use the title of Infante by court order on May 21, 2003. That was only possible because the Spanish judiciary willed it (and it surely didn't hurt that Leandro had a warm relationship with his nephew; it also didn't hurt that Leandro was a royal bastard rather than just the bastard of a royal—the distinction there being that a royal bastard is the illegitimate child of a sovereign (Alfonso XIII, in Leandro's case)).


Either way, unless the German monarchy were restored, that is not likely to ever happen in the case of any illegitimate child born to any member of the House of Wettin or any other German house, for the simple reason that neither the Federal Republic of Germany nor any of its constituent states give any recognition at all to royal and noble titles, aside from their use as surnames. Since the German Bund und Länder do not recognize the titles, German courts cannot determine that anyone has the right to the titles.
 
If money allowed someone to become a royal, Bill Gates would be the Supreme Emperor of Earth.



Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, the illegitimate half-uncle of former Spanish King Juan Carlos, who was granted the right to use the title of Infante by court order on May 21, 2003. That was only possible because the Spanish judiciary willed it (and it surely didn't hurt that Leandro had a warm relationship with his nephew; it also didn't hurt that Leandro was a royal bastard rather than just the bastard of a royal—the distinction there being that a royal bastard is the illegitimate child of a sovereign (Alfonso XIII, in Leandro's case)).
s.


Actually, under current Spanish law (royal decree 1368/1987), the King of Spain can exceptionally extend the dignity of Infante to any person he deems worthy, with the caveat that those so-called "infantes de gracia" bear the style of Highness only, as opposed to Royal Highness.
 
Actually, under current Spanish law (royal decree 1368/1987), the King of Spain can exceptionally extend the dignity of Infante to any person he deems worthy, with the caveat that those so-called "infantes de gracia" bear the style of Highness only, as opposed to Royal Highness.
At the risk of creating another tangent: Is the Spanish title infante de gracia then roughly equivalent to the French title légitimé? Well, of course not generally, seeing as it can be granted to anyone, but when granted to a (legitimized) bastard, would they then be somewhat equivalent?
 
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One way to look at it would be that, with the abolition of the German monarchy and the abolition of state recognition of royal and noble titles, the royal and noble houses of Germany effectively became, in addition to being families, private societies that have the right to determine the qualifications of their own members and how membership is attained. While the German state recognizes words such as Prinzessin von Sachsen as surnames, the actual titles have effectively become titles awarded from within the houses to their members, such that no one is a Princess of Saxony, by title, and no one is a member of the House of Wettin, unless the House of Wettin says they are.

Either way, unless the German monarchy were restored, that is not likely to ever happen in the case of any illegitimate child born to any member of the House of Wettin or any other German house, for the simple reason that neither the Federal Republic of Germany nor any of its constituent states give any recognition at all to royal and noble titles, aside from their use as surnames. Since the German Bund und Länder do not recognize the titles, German courts cannot determine that anyone has the right to the titles.

I think that is a good summation of the way it is looked at in the family circles of the former monarchical houses.

The state of Germany looks at it otherwise (as you already know, but others can refer to the court ruling in post #59). The law in force does not distinguish between children of males and females, legitimate and illegitimate children, or members and non-members of the private society called the House of Wettin. With a legitimate child of a male member of the House of Wettin, the words Prinzessin/Prinz von Sachsen are also recognized as surnames, not titles.

Furthermore, if the argument used by the private societies is that the surname Princess of Saxony is not an "actual title" because it is not recognized as such by the state, then neither is there any rationale for treating the titles awarded by the family as "actual titles". The family-awarded titles are not recognized by the state in any form, even as surnames.


Wealth does not matter at all. The only way one becomes a member of the House of Wettin is to be born into it or to marry into it, and even then only under the circumstances determined according to the house laws—In particular, this means that the children of (suo jure) female members of the House of Wettin do not get membership ever (unless the father was also a member of the House of Wettin), and the children of male members are disqualified if they are illegitimate or if the marriage to which they were born was unequal.

It's snobbish, sexist, and steeped in all kinds of backwardness, but that's what you get when you have a society that's organized on the basis of 19th Century Central European aristocratic norms.

I agree with you (although the male members of houses have been remarkably flexible when the 19th century norms would prohibit them from marrying the "unequal" wives of their choice!), and that is another reason why I fail to see why children who (by the House's own words) do not belong to the House should be made to keep to the House's rules, particularly when they contradict the laws of the state.

What is being discussed in this thread , however, is not a commoner becoming royal by a legitimate marriage, which again is quite common these days ( Letizia, Maxima, Mary, Kate, Camilla, Mette-Marit, Daniel, Sofia, Claire, Marie, Laurentine, etc) . Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house, which is not possible in most monarchies and, in fact, is barred by law in many existing monarchies where illegitimate children are excluded from the line of succession to the throne.

Actually, I believe what was being discussed was whether an illegitimate daughter and some members of the public are wrong for treating her in keeping with the laws of the state rather than the decisions of a family which has excluded her.

She is illegitimate, which means she may have royal blood but she cant have royal status. And since the German monarchy is long dead it seems academic...

Within the existing German legal system, her status is the same as that of a legitimate child. Whether that status should be seen as "royal" or not is a different question.


Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, [...]

I have read differently regarding Leandro de Borbón, but I will reply to that later in the Spanish forum.
 
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How? Money would not make her a Princess and there is in any case no Monarchy in Germany

She is already a princess by name according to german laws, this Xenia of Saxonia. She is just not recognized by the House of Saxonia.
 
She is already a princess by name according to german laws, this Xenia of Saxonia. She is just not recognized by the House of Saxonia.
The fact that Germany recognizes her surname to be Prinzessin von Sachsen does not mean she is a princess any more than Dwight Eisenhower was an iron hewer, Margaret Thatcher made thatched roofs, or Bob Dylan (whose surname by birth was Zimmerman) builds houses. Having the title of princess makes one a princess, and Xenia, regardless of her surname, has not the title of princess.
 
Also the Mother of that Xenia is no Princess at all (as in titel) but only Princess by NAME


because Germany doesn't have a Monarchy anymore; Germany doesn't recognise any German Titels anymore


For the House of Wettin, the mother is a member of the private society of House of Wettin; not so the daughters because out of wedlock


Out of courtesy some Germans still adress Members of once existing Houses by once existing Titels, courtesy titels and form of address.


that does NOT give it any legal function what so ever.


I'm myself closely related to Germanys once existing nobility with Princes from Reigning Houses etc.
 
For a couple of really old examples of royal women who had illegitimate children, Charlemagne's daughters, Rotrude and Bertha, produced one and two illegitimate sons, respectively.
 
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