The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #81  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:19 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The Thyssen girl was actually a baroness already, wasn’t she ?
Oh c'mon, I was answering to the insinuation, that the royal circles are snobbish and see the rich as vulgar, "entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue"!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Royals from reigning families in Europe now frequently marry commoners with a middle-class background.
Thank you, for supporting my argument!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house...
We were discussing this Xenia of Saxonia, right? And my point was, with some monies her status could sure be healed.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 07-05-2019, 02:30 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
Oh c'mon, I was answering to the insinuation, that the royal circles are snobbish and see the rich as vulgar, "entirely lacking in proper breeding and virtue"!



Thank you, for supporting my argument!



We were discussing this Xenia of Saxonia, right? And my point was, with some monies her status could sure be healed.
How? Money would not make her a Princess and there is in any case no Monarchy in Germany
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:29 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Floodwood, United States
Posts: 64
If money allowed someone to become a royal, Bill Gates would be the Supreme Emperor of Earth.



Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, the illegitimate half-uncle of former Spanish King Juan Carlos, who was granted the right to use the title of Infante by court order on May 21, 2003. That was only possible because the Spanish judiciary willed it (and it surely didn't hurt that Leandro had a warm relationship with his nephew; it also didn't hurt that Leandro was a royal bastard rather than just the bastard of a royal—the distinction there being that a royal bastard is the illegitimate child of a sovereign (Alfonso XIII, in Leandro's case)).


Either way, unless the German monarchy were restored, that is not likely to ever happen in the case of any illegitimate child born to any member of the House of Wettin or any other German house, for the simple reason that neither the Federal Republic of Germany nor any of its constituent states give any recognition at all to royal and noble titles, aside from their use as surnames. Since the German Bund und Länder do not recognize the titles, German courts cannot determine that anyone has the right to the titles.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 07-05-2019, 05:58 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
If money allowed someone to become a royal, Bill Gates would be the Supreme Emperor of Earth.



Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, the illegitimate half-uncle of former Spanish King Juan Carlos, who was granted the right to use the title of Infante by court order on May 21, 2003. That was only possible because the Spanish judiciary willed it (and it surely didn't hurt that Leandro had a warm relationship with his nephew; it also didn't hurt that Leandro was a royal bastard rather than just the bastard of a royal—the distinction there being that a royal bastard is the illegitimate child of a sovereign (Alfonso XIII, in Leandro's case)).
s.

Actually, under current Spanish law (royal decree 1368/1987), the King of Spain can exceptionally extend the dignity of Infante to any person he deems worthy, with the caveat that those so-called "infantes de gracia" bear the style of Highness only, as opposed to Royal Highness.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 07-05-2019, 06:22 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Floodwood, United States
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Actually, under current Spanish law (royal decree 1368/1987), the King of Spain can exceptionally extend the dignity of Infante to any person he deems worthy, with the caveat that those so-called "infantes de gracia" bear the style of Highness only, as opposed to Royal Highness.
At the risk of creating another tangent: Is the Spanish title infante de gracia then roughly equivalent to the French title légitimé? Well, of course not generally, seeing as it can be granted to anyone, but when granted to a (legitimized) bastard, would they then be somewhat equivalent?
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 07-05-2019, 08:24 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 1,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
One way to look at it would be that, with the abolition of the German monarchy and the abolition of state recognition of royal and noble titles, the royal and noble houses of Germany effectively became, in addition to being families, private societies that have the right to determine the qualifications of their own members and how membership is attained. While the German state recognizes words such as Prinzessin von Sachsen as surnames, the actual titles have effectively become titles awarded from within the houses to their members, such that no one is a Princess of Saxony, by title, and no one is a member of the House of Wettin, unless the House of Wettin says they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
Either way, unless the German monarchy were restored, that is not likely to ever happen in the case of any illegitimate child born to any member of the House of Wettin or any other German house, for the simple reason that neither the Federal Republic of Germany nor any of its constituent states give any recognition at all to royal and noble titles, aside from their use as surnames. Since the German Bund und Länder do not recognize the titles, German courts cannot determine that anyone has the right to the titles.
I think that is a good summation of the way it is looked at in the family circles of the former monarchical houses.

The state of Germany looks at it otherwise (as you already know, but others can refer to the court ruling in post #59). The law in force does not distinguish between children of males and females, legitimate and illegitimate children, or members and non-members of the private society called the House of Wettin. With a legitimate child of a male member of the House of Wettin, the words Prinzessin/Prinz von Sachsen are also recognized as surnames, not titles.

Furthermore, if the argument used by the private societies is that the surname Princess of Saxony is not an "actual title" because it is not recognized as such by the state, then neither is there any rationale for treating the titles awarded by the family as "actual titles". The family-awarded titles are not recognized by the state in any form, even as surnames.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
Wealth does not matter at all. The only way one becomes a member of the House of Wettin is to be born into it or to marry into it, and even then only under the circumstances determined according to the house laws—In particular, this means that the children of (suo jure) female members of the House of Wettin do not get membership ever (unless the father was also a member of the House of Wettin), and the children of male members are disqualified if they are illegitimate or if the marriage to which they were born was unequal.

It's snobbish, sexist, and steeped in all kinds of backwardness, but that's what you get when you have a society that's organized on the basis of 19th Century Central European aristocratic norms.
I agree with you (although the male members of houses have been remarkably flexible when the 19th century norms would prohibit them from marrying the "unequal" wives of their choice!), and that is another reason why I fail to see why children who (by the House's own words) do not belong to the House should be made to keep to the House's rules, particularly when they contradict the laws of the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
What is being discussed in this thread , however, is not a commoner becoming royal by a legitimate marriage, which again is quite common these days ( Letizia, Maxima, Mary, Kate, Camilla, Mette-Marit, Daniel, Sofia, Claire, Marie, Laurentine, etc) . Instead, what is being discussed is an illegitimate daughter becoming part of the royal house, which is not possible in most monarchies and, in fact, is barred by law in many existing monarchies where illegitimate children are excluded from the line of succession to the throne.
Actually, I believe what was being discussed was whether an illegitimate daughter and some members of the public are wrong for treating her in keeping with the laws of the state rather than the decisions of a family which has excluded her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
She is illegitimate, which means she may have royal blood but she cant have royal status. And since the German monarchy is long dead it seems academic...
Within the existing German legal system, her status is the same as that of a legitimate child. Whether that status should be seen as "royal" or not is a different question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
Now, there's only one case in recent history that comes to my mind of a bastard being given a royal title, that being Leandro Alfonso Luis de Borbón Ruiz Austria, [...]
I have read differently regarding Leandro de Borbón, but I will reply to that later in the Spanish forum.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 07-06-2019, 08:28 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
How? Money would not make her a Princess and there is in any case no Monarchy in Germany
She is already a princess by name according to german laws, this Xenia of Saxonia. She is just not recognized by the House of Saxonia.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 07-06-2019, 03:19 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Floodwood, United States
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by victor1319 View Post
She is already a princess by name according to german laws, this Xenia of Saxonia. She is just not recognized by the House of Saxonia.
The fact that Germany recognizes her surname to be Prinzessin von Sachsen does not mean she is a princess any more than Dwight Eisenhower was an iron hewer, Margaret Thatcher made thatched roofs, or Bob Dylan (whose surname by birth was Zimmerman) builds houses. Having the title of princess makes one a princess, and Xenia, regardless of her surname, has not the title of princess.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 07-06-2019, 04:17 PM
Nice Nofret's Avatar
Courtier
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Posts: 595
Also the Mother of that Xenia is no Princess at all (as in titel) but only Princess by NAME


because Germany doesn't have a Monarchy anymore; Germany doesn't recognise any German Titels anymore


For the House of Wettin, the mother is a member of the private society of House of Wettin; not so the daughters because out of wedlock


Out of courtesy some Germans still adress Members of once existing Houses by once existing Titels, courtesy titels and form of address.


that does NOT give it any legal function what so ever.


I'm myself closely related to Germanys once existing nobility with Princes from Reigning Houses etc.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 07-16-2019, 02:35 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Floodwood, United States
Posts: 64
For a couple of really old examples of royal women who had illegitimate children, Charlemagne's daughters, Rotrude and Bertha, produced one and two illegitimate sons, respectively.
Reply With Quote
  #91  
Old 08-30-2019, 10:08 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 4,275
Quote:
Originally Posted by guantanamera View Post
In more modern times, for example, it is rumored that King Juan Carlos I of Spain has several illegitimate children
but he is not a woman....
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 08-30-2019, 12:13 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 8,396
The nickname of this Princess was taken from the insinuation that her biological father was in fact Beltran de la Cueva and not King Henry IV of Castille:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanna_la_Beltraneja

Her mother Joan of Portugal had also to sons by Pedro de Castilla y Fonseca "el mozo", nephew of Bishop Fonseca (born after she was divorced by Henry IV and banished from the court):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Portugal
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crown Princess Mary's Work for Women's Rights (including Women Deliver Conference) Roskilde Crown Prince Frederik, Crown Princess Mary and Family 230 06-05-2019 02:32 PM
Succession Rights For Illegitimate Royal Children juliamontague General Royal Discussion 269 06-11-2018 12:48 AM
Prince Bernhard's Illegitimate Children Australian Dutch Royals 93 02-12-2018 06:43 PM
June 2008 Newsletter: The illegitimate children of royals Lady Jennifer Forum Announcements and Admin 6 06-01-2008 10:02 PM




Popular Tags
archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy bangladesh bavaria;house;chef;luitpold;ludwig belgian royal belgian royal family birthday celebration charles of wales crown prince hussein's future wife crusades current events cypher danish royalty denmark duchess of cambridge duchess of sussex duke & duchess of cambridge; duke of sussex dutch royal family family search felipe vi foundation french royalty friendly city future future wife of prince hussein germany greece hamdan bin mohammed headship hill jerusalem king salman lithuania lithuanian palaces meghan markle memoir mohammed vi monaco history monaco royal monarchism mountbatten netflix nobel prize norway history official visit pakistan prince daniel prince harry princess benedikte princess margaret qe2 rown royal children royal tour russian imperial family saudi arabia savoy saxony south africa spain spanish history state visit state visit to denmark sweden swedish royalty tracts trump valois visit from sweden


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:44 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019
Jelsoft Enterprises
×