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  #41  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
And it's quite possible that her son Paul was fathered by her lover Sergei Saltykov, but it's probably best not to go there because it'd mean none of the Romanovs since were actually real Romanovs!
There's an old story I've read about how that when Empress Alexandra of Russia tried to pressure the staff at Almanach da Gotha into listing the Imperial house as Romanov instead of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov the reply was that if she wasn't happy with the name they could always name it Holstein-Gottorp-Saltykov.
It's probably a fake story, but it shows that many were aware of the possibility of Sergei Saltykov being the father of Emperor Paul.
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  #42  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:15 PM
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Some key biographers have put forth the possibility that Princess Louise of the United Kingdom (fourth daughter and sixth child overall of Queen Victoria), before she became the Duchess of Argyll, may have had an illegitimate child by her brother's tutor. The evidence is scant, but that does not necessarily mean it didn't happen—we know from what occurred in the case of Princess Thyra of Denmark's illegitimate child exactly how a princess being impregnated out of wedlock in the Victorian era would have panned out: She would have been sent somewhere far away to give birth to the child, who would have immediately been adopted out to a common family while the Royal Household worked overtime to erase all evidence that the pregnancy had ever occurred; and that's assuming the pregnancy didn't end in a miscarriage or the Royal Household didn't, in panic mode, procure an abortion to avoid scandal.
The story stems from the supposed kid himself. The queen's gynaecologist Charles locock had a son Frederick. Fred and his wife Mary had a child Henry who may have been adopted. What is known Louise did show some interest in the child after Mary died. Henry bragged as he grew up she visited as he was her son. And the rumor passed down the family.


Louise was a feminist and a bit wild in her time. There was plenty of rumors due to it, of her having lovers.
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  #43  
Old 07-02-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Today we have the case of "Xenia Prinzessin und Herzogin von Sachsen" who is named thus because her mother, Iris Prinzessin und Herzogin von Sachsen did not name a father (though I recently read anyone who wanted to know knew who the girl's father is) - so in former times she would have been considered "non existent" but today she has a right to her mother's name and thus is regarded by "normal" people as a real princess.
Not only is Xenia illegitimate, but so too is her sister, Xandra. Additionally, Xenia has an illegitimate child of her own.
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  #44  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
Not only is Xenia illegitimate, but so too is her sister, Xandra. Additionally, Xenia has an illegitimate child of her own.
I can't see how she would be a Princess since Royal titles descend to legitimate children....
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  #45  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:08 AM
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I can't see how she would be a Princess since Royal titles descend to legitimate children....
Because of the German law making royal and noble titles part of the surname it's completely legal for Xenia, who doesn't carry her father's name, to adopt the surname of her mother Iris, Prinzessin von Sachsen. This in turn makes it possible for people to be confused and think she is a "real" princess, something that she gladly and actively encourages them to do.
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  #46  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:27 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Because of the German law making royal and noble titles part of the surname it's completely legal for Xenia, who doesn't carry her father's name, to adopt the surname of her mother Iris, Prinzessin von Sachsen. This in turn makes it possible for people to be confused and think she is a "real" princess, something that she gladly and actively encourages them to do.
Thanks a bit moot anyway since the German monarchy isn't around any more.....
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  #47  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:28 AM
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Thanks a bit moot anyway since the German monarchy isn't around any more.....
The monarchies might have fallen, but the families are in most cases still there.
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  #48  
Old 07-03-2019, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I can't see how she would be a Princess since Royal titles descend to legitimate children....
Some countries do allow the descent of royal titles to illegitimate children. Currently, the titles officially recognized in the German republic may descend to all acknowledged children without reference to their parents' marital status.

In the Japanese monarchy pre-1947, not only royal titles but succession rights descended to sons born from concubines, who would be considered illegitimate by Western laws.

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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Because of the German law making royal and noble titles part of the surname it's completely legal for Xenia, who doesn't carry her father's name, to adopt the surname of her mother Iris, Prinzessin von Sachsen. This in turn makes it possible for people to be confused and think she is a "real" princess, something that she gladly and actively encourages them to do.
Does she actively encourage people to think that her father was married to her mother? As far as the title/surname she carries is concerned, it is equally real as those carried by legitimate children.
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  #49  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:17 AM
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The title isn't legally recognised anyway whether the parents are married or not, so I don't think it matters overly much, though I'm sure some those who rely on House Laws for inheritance and prestige care a lot.
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  #50  
Old 07-03-2019, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Thena View Post
A good example would be the later children of Grand Duchess Wilhelmine of Hesse, wife of Louis II of Hesse. The marriage was unhappy; there was a wide age difference between the two and Louis had his own extramarital affairs. After Wilhelmine provided an heir and a spare (the future Louis III and Prince Karl, respectively) she moved into Heiligenberg Castle. After embarking on an affair with Baron August von Senarclens de Grancy in 1820, she gave birth to an additional four children. Louis acknowledged them as his own, but it was well-known that the Grand Duke and Grand Duchess were not even living together.

Only the two youngest, Alexander and Marie, survived to adulthood and made a rather spectacular mark on history. Marie became Empress of Russia as the wife of Tsar Alexander II. Reportedly when courtiers tried to whisper to Alexander about the rumors of Marie's parentage, he responded with the allegations that his own ancestor Paul I wasn't the actual son of Peter III. Meanwhile, Alexander morgantically married Countess Julia von Hauke, Princess of Battenberg. Among his descendants are King Felipe of Spain and Prince Philip.
There is also a welll-known speculation that the children of Queen Isabella II of Spain were all illegitimate even though officially they were born of her marriage with Francisco, Duke of Cádiz.
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  #51  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The monarchies might have fallen, but the families are in most cases still there.
Yes but the chance of the monarchy being restored is almost zilch and the title is now just part fo the surname.
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  #52  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is also a welll-known speculation that the children of Queen Isabella II of Spain were all illegitimate even though officially they were born of her marriage with Francisco, Duke of Cádiz.
Indeed. According to this book entitled "Isabel II: Los Espejos de la Reina (2004), Isabella II's son and successor Alfonso XII of Spain, had been fathered by Enrique Puigmoltó y Mayans- a captain of the guard.

This is still shrouded in mystery since the people who peddled these at that time were the Carlists. But yes, it still should be noted that Francisco, Duke of Cádiz was said to be gay.
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  #53  
Old 07-03-2019, 09:52 AM
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As a side question, why is it that royal watchers outside of Spain usually refer to Francisco de Asís by his ducal title rather than his title of Infante or King?
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  #54  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:08 AM
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As a side question, why is it that royal watchers outside of Spain usually refer to Francisco de Asís by his ducal title rather than his title of Infante or King?
I believe it is customary to refer to deceased queen consorts by their maiden names or titles. Sometimes that is done even for living consorts. For example, I think non-English versions of the Wikipedia use “Máxima Zorreguieta” or “Mathilde d’Udekem d’Aoiz” to name their articles on Queen Máxima and Queen Mathilde.

I suppose that , by extension, the same applies to Francisco de Asis, who was indeed an Infante by birth and later king consort. Sometimes he is referrred to as Infante Francisco, Duke of Cádiz, but it is indeed rare to call him King Francisco.
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  #55  
Old 07-03-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I believe it is customary to refer to deceased queen consorts by their maiden names or titles. Sometimes that is done even for living consorts. For example, I think non-English versions of the Wikipedia use “Máxima Zorreguieta” or “Mathilde d’Udekem d’Aciz” to name their articles on Queen Máxima and Queen Mathilde.

I suppose that , by extension, the same applies to Francisco de Asis, who was indeed an Infante by birth and later king consort. Sometimes he is referrred to as Infante Francisco, Duke of Cádiz, but it is indeed rare to call him King Francisco.
That's true, and provided that is the reason, then I suppose my question is why English royal watchers usually refer to him by the ducal title he carried at birth (as the constitution in place at the time limited royal status to the children of the King and the children of the Prince of Asturias) and not the higher title of Infante which he received as a child and carried at the time of his marriage.
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  #56  
Old 07-03-2019, 01:26 PM
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Yeah, Xenia and Xandra are most definitely not princesses. While it could be argued that Article 6 of the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany automatically legitimizes all bastards, the fact remains that there is no tradition of legitimation entitling a legitimized bastard to the use of the title of prince(ss), even if there were there is no tradition in the very Salic House of Wettin of uterine inheritance of titles, and, even if that weren't an issue, the Federal Republic of Germany does not recognize any royal or noble titles.

And the House of Wettin is also quite clear that Xenia is not a member of the House of Wettin.


That said, the fact remains that both Xenia and Xandra are illegitimate children of a titular princess.
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  #57  
Old 07-03-2019, 02:16 PM
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Yeah, Xenia and Xandra are most definitely not princesses. While it could be argued that Article 6 of the Basic Law of the Federal Republic of Germany automatically legitimizes all bastards, the fact remains that there is no tradition of legitimation entitling a legitimized bastard to the use of the title of prince(ss), even if there were there is no tradition in the very Salic House of Wettin of uterine inheritance of titles, [...]

And the House of Wettin is also quite clear that Xenia is not a member of the House of Wettin.
The House of Wettin is a private family with no official role in legislation following the fall of Germany's monarchies, and the descent of titles which have been made parts of surnames is no longer regulated by the traditions of the House of Wettin but by the laws of the federal republic.

Had the traditions of the House of Wettin been adhered to, Xenia's and Xandra's mother would also not be considered a princess as she was born of an unequal marriage.

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Originally Posted by Troy Thompson View Post
and, even if that weren't an issue, the Federal Republic of Germany does not recognize any royal or noble titles.
Titles are recognized by the republic in the form of surnames. I suppose you refer to the fact that titles are not recognized in the form of titles, but in that case, the same applies to the "legitimate" members of the House of Wettin.
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  #58  
Old 07-03-2019, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The House of Wettin is a private family with no official role in legislation following the fall of Germany's monarchies, and the descent of titles which have been made parts of surnames is no longer regulated by the traditions of the House of Wettin but by the laws of the federal republic.
I'm sorry, I always value your opinion, but in this case you are, and have been before, wrong. While it's true that Xenia legally carries the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen this does not make her a Princess of Sachsen. The two are completely separate. Membership of the Royal House of Saxony depends on the customs and House laws of said Royal House.
You can be both a member of the Royal family and carry the surname of Prinz von Sachsen, but there are also several people who carry said surname without being members of the Royal family.
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  #59  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The House of Wettin is a private family with no official role in legislation following the fall of Germany's monarchies, and the descent of titles which have been made parts of surnames is no longer regulated by the traditions of the House of Wettin but by the laws of the federal republic.
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I'm sorry, I always value your opinion, but in this case you are, and have been before, wrong. While it's true that Xenia legally carries the surname Prinzessin von Sachsen this does not make her a Princess of Sachsen. The two are completely separate. Membership of the Royal House of Saxony depends on the customs and House laws of said Royal House.
You can be both a member of the Royal family and carry the surname of Prinz von Sachsen, but there are also several people who carry said surname without being members of the Royal family.
I hope it is clear that I do not represent myself as never being wrong. However, as the concept that the House of Wettin continues to have an official part in legislating for the federal republic of Germany (as that is the part of my post which you quoted and refer to as wrong) is contrary to my previous understanding, I would appreciate a reference in addition to the bare statement that I am wrong.

ETA: As a reference for my own statement, here is a European Union court ruling noting that titles of nobility, as such, are abolished in Germany and their descent, as names, is regulated by "the German Law on personal status".
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  #60  
Old 07-03-2019, 04:40 PM
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A child out of wedlock has royal blood - and some make something out of it:

Like William the Bastard who became William the Conqueror - ok, his father was the Duke of Normandy. He does not really fit into this thread.

But the most of the illegitimate kids of today are mere tv-personalities... and Game of Thrones is on the Internet!

That said: This Xenia girl of Saxonia is royal by name and blood (the mother is always and at least sure...).
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