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  #101  
Old 06-23-2012, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
It may have already been mentioned but for me the Prince Albert situation is complicated by the fact that his paternal grandmother was born illegitimate. Her own father was able to adopt her(even though she was already his daughter) and make her his heir.

I wonder if Albert could do the same with one of his children if he and Charlene don't end up having any.
He couldn't.
Changes in law (passed during Prince Ranier's reign) mean that now adopted children can not have rights to the Throne.
If Prince Albert doesn't have legitimate issue, his successor will be Princess Caroline or (if Caroline predeceases Albert) Andrea Casiraghi.
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  #102  
Old 06-23-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
He couldn't.
Changes in law (passed during Prince Ranier's reign) mean that now adopted children can not have rights to the Throne.
If Prince Albert doesn't have legitimate issue, his successor will be Princess Caroline or (if Caroline predeceases Albert) Andrea Casiraghi.
I didn't realize the laws had been changed. Did Rainier have something to do with the change? It would seem strange to me if he did considering his mother's situation and the fact that he would never have been prince of Monaco if not for her adoption.
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  #103  
Old 06-23-2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Noble Consort Ming View Post
I didn't realize the laws had been changed. Did Rainier have something to do with the change? It would seem strange to me if he did considering his mother's situation and the fact that he would never have been prince of Monaco if not for her adoption.
Prince Rainier instigated the changes.

In 2002, Monaco adopted Princely Law 1.249 which stipulated that if the Reigning Prince dies without legitimate issue, the Throne goes to his siblings and their legitimate descendants, according to laws of male primogeniture. The law has been in effect since 2005 (after ratification by France).

Until 2002, the crown of Monaco could only pass to the direct descendants (including adopted children) of the reigning prince. This meant that Princess Antoinette was not in the line of succession and that as soon as Prince Rainier died, Princess Caroline, Princess Stephanie and their descendants would not be in the line of succession as well. Since Prince Albert had no legitimate issue, it endangered the very future of the Monegasque Throne (because, in theory, that could mean Monaco’s annexation into France). The 2002 changes dealt with that problem, granting Caroline, Stephanie and their legitimate descendants the right to be in the line of succession, and ensuring the line will go on whether Prince Albert had children or not.

One of the articles of the 2002 changes also mentioned that in order for someone to be in the line od succession, his/her parents should be married either at the time of his/her birth, or marry subsequently. For that reason, Princess Stephanie’s two eldest children, who were born out of wedlock, are in the succession line (they were legitimised by their parents’ subsequent marriage), but her youngest child, Camille, is not since Stephanie never married her father.

Thus, Prince Albert’s children born out of wedlock, Jazmin and Alexandre, cannot have claims to the Throne because they are illegitimate. Prince Albert may adopt them legally, but they would only have succession rights if he married their respective mothers. So, in theory, if Prince Albert marries Jazmin’s mother then divorced, and then married Alexandre’s mother, both children would have full succession rights (with Alexandre ahead of his sister based on male primogeniture). Since that didn’t happen and Prince Albert is now married to Princess Charlene, the question is mute.

Right now, the Hereditary Princess of Monaco is Princess Caroline; she is the Heiress Presumptive to the Throne. If Prince Albert has legitimate sons, the eldest boy will become the Heir Apparent; if he only has daughters, the eldest will be Heiress Presumptive.
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  #104  
Old 06-23-2012, 08:43 PM
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I sort of like the way the Luxembourgs handled the illegitimate birth of Gabriel to Louis and Tessy. They got married after his birth and I guess that made him legitimate. Then they made Tessy a Princess (later, after the wedding) and she gave birth to another boy, Noah, who became a Prince along with his formerly illegitimate brother Gabriel. But they do not have succession rights. Now I do think that the really good thing to do eventually is to give them succession rights. It has to come slowly, because this is a "big deal", and no one would want to say that you might as well have an illegitimate child. But now that Tessy and Louis, and their two sons, are a working part of the family (working, just like the other children of the Grand Duke Henri) I think they should consider making them part of the succession. They still would probably never inherit the throne, since Hereditary Grand Duke Guillome may have children soon, and who knows, Felix or Alexandra might marry and have children. But the "who knows" quotient is there: maybe no Prince or Princess in the present generation of that family will ever have children! Too much radiation in the air from Fukishima? Something else--war, displacement?
No one expected QE II to be in line for the throne. Perhaps fertility problems will arise as they did for the Japanese Royal Family? None of that is predictable. But I think they might consider this, because Gabriel and Noah are the only child Princes yet born in Luxembourg in this generation under 18. I dearly love the Biblical name of Noah! What a departure in a good direction from usual names of royals. How about Isaiah for Guillome's heir--a far out thought honoring a great prophet. The family seems to be sincerely devoted to God.
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  #105  
Old 06-24-2012, 11:50 AM
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Thank you for your explanation, Artemisia. It makes sense to me now although I still find it sad that Rainier would change the rule on adoption considering his own mother's circumstances.
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  #106  
Old 06-24-2012, 01:13 PM
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According to the revised Monaco constitution adoption is no longer possible in order to get an heir. Heirs must be born of lawful marriage, but may be legitimated by the Prince marrying the mother of one of his illegitimate children.
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  #107  
Old 01-14-2013, 08:49 AM
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The King of Belgium only has one out-of-wedlock child, Daphne right??
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  #108  
Old 01-21-2013, 01:24 PM
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Delphine Boel. It is my understanding, he has actually never formally acknowledged her as his daughter. I guess it's a little stickier than Prince Albert's and Prince Louis situation, in that King Albert was actually married to Queen Paola at the time of Delphine's conception, vs Prince Albert and Prince Louis being single.
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  #109  
Old 01-21-2013, 01:54 PM
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It's very different when the persons involved are single. When there is a wife, it's a much more complicated matter as the issue of cheating comes up in it.
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  #110  
Old 07-16-2014, 05:37 PM
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I have an "IF" Question...
If a royal couple had a baby years before they got married(an illegitimate child), would it become legitimate after they became married(and would the child be able to succeed?
In this case, please don't explain if the couple married while she is pregnant because then the child would be legitimate, I am asking if an illegitimate child could become legitimate.
In this case, please focus on if the child was male.

Also, if the son is unable to succeed Will as King, would the son be a prince, and if not, would he be a member of the royal family?
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  #111  
Old 07-16-2014, 06:53 PM
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If the couple got married a couple of years after the child was born, something would be put into place where the son would succeed. It probably wouldn't take place right away and most likely would occur when the son was an adult or when the royal became King, he could change it where his son would succeed him. That is just my guess.
It wouldn't be something that would be done quickly unless it was necessary to do so.
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  #112  
Old 07-16-2014, 07:13 PM
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Out of Wedlock Children and Succession Rights

If a Peer has a child and then marries the child's mother after the birth the child becomes legitimate but not eligible to succeed to the title.
I'm quite sure the same rules apply when it comes to the succession to the crown (but then again I'm not quite sure since neither Google or Wikipedia seems to be working for me at the moment)


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  #113  
Old 07-16-2014, 08:00 PM
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That's true but a lot of times things are amended. For example if a King has daughters but no sons, changes have been made so that the eldest daughter becomes Queen until his death or if he retires. This has happened in a couple of European royal households to keep the family on the throne.

Things are amended and often are to suit the monarch or his heirs. Unless the heir to throne was mentally ill or had serious health issues which would make it impossible to fulfill their obligations, I don't see why this wouldn't be done, even if it was years later.
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  #114  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
That's true but a lot of times things are amended. For example if a King has daughters but no sons, changes have been made so that the eldest daughter becomes Queen until his death or if he retires. This has happened in a couple of European royal households to keep the family on the throne.

Things are amended and often are to suit the monarch or his heirs. Unless the heir to throne was mentally ill or had serious health issues which would make it impossible to fulfill their obligations, I don't see why this wouldn't be done, even if it was years later.
No changes had to be made for the then Princess Elizabeth to succeed her father upon his death in 1952. The law stipulates that the succession is by male primogeniture, meaning that the oldest legitimate (not legitimized) male "heir of the body" succeeds to the throne. In the absence of a male heir, the oldest legitimate (not legitimized) female "heir of the body" would succeed.

Any changes to this law (such as the current Succession to the Crown legislation) must be passed in Parliament (and in the other realms where HM is monarch), which is not something that lends itself to appeasing the whim of the monarch or his/her heirs.

If William and Kate had had a son together prior to their marriage, that son would be legitimized by their marriage, but not "legitimate" in terms of succeeding to the throne. Prince George's place as 3rd in line to the throne is safe and secure.
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  #115  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:36 PM
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This really depends on where you're talking about.

In Britain, only legitimately born individuals are in the line of succession to the throne. Likewise, only legitimately born individuals are in the lines of succession to the various peerages. In order to change the latter, legislature would have to be passed in Britain, and in order to change the former it would have to be okayed in all of the realms, with at least some of them passing legislature.

An example of such people would be the elder children of the 8th Earl of Harwood. While their younger bothers are in the line of succession to both their father's peerage and the British throne (the Earl being a grandchild of Mary, Princess Royal), Emily and Benjamin were born before their parents marriage and as such aren't in any lines of succession. They are styled as the children of an Warl, and have been since their parents marriage. Having out of wedlock children seems to be something of a Lascelles family tradition - the current Earl has 2 out of wedlock children and 1 out of wedlock grandchild (who was born to the Earl's heir), 1 out of wedlock nephew/niece, and 1 out of wedlock brother. None of them are in the succession to the Earldom of Harewood or the British throne.

Whether or not a legitimized person could hold royal title would probably be up to the monarch. I doubt that such circumstances would be covered under the 1917 LPs, so it would be up to the monarch to issue new LPs allowing that person to use royal titles and styles.
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  #116  
Old 07-16-2014, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nascarlucy View Post
That's true but a lot of times things are amended. For example if a King has daughters but no sons, changes have been made so that the eldest daughter becomes Queen until his death or if he retires. This has happened in a couple of European royal households to keep the family on the throne.

Things are amended and often are to suit the monarch or his heirs. Unless the heir to throne was mentally ill or had serious health issues which would make it impossible to fulfill their obligations, I don't see why this wouldn't be done, even if it was years later.

Succession laws are not often mended, especially in Britain. Asides from the recent amendment to allow for equal primogeniture - which took about 3 years to change, and is still of debatable legality in some realms - the last time the Brits amended the succession was in 1701.

Some realms that had Salic law (like Denmark) have gone through relatively recent changes to drop Salic law and allow for female inheritance. Other realms have also been changing their succession laws to allow for equal primogeniture. Outside of Monaco, there doesn't seem to be any push for allowing illegitimate, legitimated, or adopted children to inherit, and Monaco has long had really rather unique succession laws.
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