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  #61  
Old 07-12-2010, 08:08 PM
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You're right. I didn't think of it that way when I wrote the post.
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  #62  
Old 07-24-2010, 09:59 PM
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I know all children should be loved and treated the same but it does not matter to the law illegitmate children will not have the same rights of those who are legitmate.Here in the 21st century it stays the same they are allowed to be acknowledge and get child support and a apart of their father's inheritance but they have no rights to the throne.
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  #63  
Old 08-08-2010, 01:06 PM
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I know all children should be loved and treated the same but it does not matter to the law illegitmate children will not have the same rights of those who are legitmate.Here in the 21st century it stays the same they are allowed to be acknowledge and get child support and a apart of their father's inheritance but they have no rights to the throne.
That is the way it is. I too doubt that illegitimate children will be treated like their legitimate siblings in near future. But is it the way it should be? Is that right?

And can we talk about "equal primogeniture" while the eldest child is not always the heir in reality?

Polly is absolutely right. But nobody has answered my question: should the children of such irresponsible people be discriminated due to their parent's mistake?
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  #64  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:16 PM
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At least, today, they are not discarded and hidden. Of course, Charles II, had many and gave them all titles of sorts. Children of these unions will never be accepted into the fold, especially if there are "legitimate" heirs. It is hard enough to get a "legitimate" girl to supercede her younger brother, than to see succession rights for "illigitimate" children. As they are recognized, financially, at least, they have less problems. I don't know what is right or wrong. Who, really, does.
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  #65  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:37 PM
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I believe the chance of the Monaco succession law closed the loophole that Boris is referencing. Hence Albert can not adopt his children and make them his legitimate heirs. He would have to marry Nicole to do that for Alexandre and as Tamara was married at the time of conception/birth of Jazmin, he can't marry Tamara to make her legtimate.

Also in reference to Delphine I would hardly blame Paola for her not having a relationship with Albert. Surely her simple presence will be a constant reminder of her husband affair, but really its up to Albert and Delphine on whether or not they don't want to have a relationship. Now surely, its hard to have a relationship with someone when they don't want to have one with you. But it surely not Paola's fault. Now if Albert did not have a relationship with his daughter because Paola wouldn't allow it....then shame on both of them.
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  #66  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:40 PM
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Children pay for the mistakes and decisions that their parents make. It's not fair but sadly this is how it is. Other people hold against them even though they had nothing to do with it.
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  #67  
Old 08-08-2010, 08:06 PM
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The sins of the Fathers....it, reallly, is the sins of the mothers, too. In Paola's case, she, is certainly, a victim. But Albert and Nicole knew the risks. And, I am sure, Nicole, was wise enough to see the situation impossible. Again, in Jazimin case that, too, was a folly and both thier parts. Nobody, I should quailfy that, good people do not see the children as a problem, just the situation. I, hope, all these children have good lives.
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  #68  
Old 08-28-2010, 09:50 PM
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We know that many royal households thoughout history have had children born out of wedlock, mostly fathered by male royals, although in recent times there have been a few females here and there. An interesting question would be of these children born out of wedlock and acknowledged, how many of male royals later married their child's mother. Or in the few cases involving female, how many marriages later took place. It would seem that in cases involving females, the percentage would be a little higher. My guess is that the percentages are not very high (1 to 5%) and I might be over estimating this as the true count of this will never been totally known. Only a small faction of these cases are really known.
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  #69  
Old 09-03-2010, 01:53 PM
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What about William the Conqueror and the Beauforts

House of Beaufort
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
House of Beaufort

Armorial of Beaufort
Country Kingdom of England
Ancestral house House of Plantagenet (legitimised)
Titles
Earl of Somerset
Marquess of Dorset
Duke of Beaufort
Founder John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset
Current head David Somerset, 11th Duke of Beaufort
Founding 1373
Ethnicity English, French (see details)
Cadet branches
House of Tudor (non agnatic)
The House of Beaufort descended from John Beaufort (1371-1410) the legitimized son of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster and Katherine Swynford. Although officially barred from inheriting the throne the Beauforts played an important role in the dynastic struggles of the fifteenth century as powerful nobles with close ties to the royal family, especially the House of Lancaster.
Henry VII traced his claim to the English crown through his descent from Margaret Beaufort, his mother, who was a granddaughter of John Beaufort, and great-granddaughter of John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (see above).
The Beaufort family in the male line is today represented by the Duke of Beaufort, a descendant of Henry Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset through his illegitimate son Charles Somerset, 1st Earl of Worcester.
Notable Beauforts included:
John Beaufort, 1st Earl of Somerset (c. 1371–1410).
Henry Beaufort, 2nd Earl of Somerset (c. 1401–1418).
John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset (c. 1404–1444).
Lady Margaret Beaufort (1443–1509), mother of King Henry VII of England
Joan Beaufort, Queen of Scotland (c. 1404–1445)
Thomas Beaufort, Count of Perche (c. 1405–1431)
Edmund Beaufort, 2nd Duke of Somerset (c. 1406–1455).
Henry Beaufort, 3rd Duke of Somerset (1436–1464).
Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Stafford (c. 1427–1474)
Edmund Beaufort, 4th Duke of Somerset (c. 1438–1471).
John Beaufort, Marquess of Dorset (c. 1455–1471)
Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Devon (1409–1449)
Henry Beaufort (c. 1375-1447), Cardinal Bishop of Winchester
Thomas Beaufort (c. 1377–1426), Duke of Exeter
Joan Beaufort, Countess of Westmorland (c. 1379–1440)
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  #70  
Old 10-17-2010, 01:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
That is the way it is. I too doubt that illegitimate children will be treated like their legitimate siblings in near future. But is it the way it should be? Is that right?

And can we talk about "equal primogeniture" while the eldest child is not always the heir in reality?

Polly is absolutely right. But nobody has answered my question: should the children of such irresponsible people be discriminated due to their parent's mistake?
No the children should be discriminated by the choice of their parents'.But the law is the law it cleary says only parents who have children at wedlock or if they are allowed to legitmitize them though marriage will be in line to the throne period no question asked.
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  #71  
Old 10-17-2010, 02:49 PM
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I think the illegtimate children will never be treated as legtimate ones due to the poisition of the royal families and the monarchies in general as they represent the social traditions and religeous concepts and allowing illegtimate children to have succession rights will be against these traditions and concepts.
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  #72  
Old 10-17-2010, 06:15 PM
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The rules of succession rights were made by males. This was to protect their recognized children from their poor judgement and irresponsible behavior. It had little to do with religion or traditions. It was to protect the status quo.

When their mistress or girlfriend has a daughter, these men rejoice because succession rights are a non-issue. The daughters that their wife has don't have succession rights either for the most part.

Sons could try to challenge this and that is a different matter. When their mistress or girlfriend has son or sons and their wife doesn't have sons or can't have children, then you can have a real problem on your hands. Sometimes the sons of the mistress or girlfriend are their first born. To protect their interests, this is why these laws or rules were made in the first place.

You don't see as many of these children nowadays because there are ways of preventing this. Even so, from time to time unrecognized children are born. They are not as hidden as they once were and when they are it's for different reasons than in the past.
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  #73  
Old 10-18-2010, 09:22 AM
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Didn't the Dutch Prince Bernard's illegitimate daughters get their equal share of their inheritance when he passed, together with the four Dutch princess'?
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  #74  
Old 10-18-2010, 05:11 PM
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Yes, they did, and if I don't mistake they got a very high amount of money; but this has nothing to do with any succession right, that they can't claim at all.
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  #75  
Old 10-18-2010, 08:00 PM
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Didn't know about this story. Well that's good that he acknowledged them and included them in his will.
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  #76  
Old 10-24-2010, 11:37 AM
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No the children should be discriminated by the choice of their parents'.But the law is the law it cleary says only parents who have children at wedlock or if they are allowed to legitmitize them though marriage will be in line to the throne period no question asked.
Illegitimate children getting treatment that is different from those that are legitimate has been a problem through out history. In my genealogy research I have seen how this has happened countless times. My line is a perfect example, Guillaume IV of Aquitaine had two illegitimate children. The first was Pierre de Chabot and the second was Guillaume de Talmond. Pierre de Chabot's line continued having male children and this is the reason my name surname continues as Chabot. Henri de Chabot married a Rohan and he named his children Rohan-Chabot. At the time the french throne was conducting a campaign against the
Huguenot in southern France.

Philippee de Chabot the Admiral of France married an illegitimate daughter of the line of Valois. Yet I do not see anywhere in history where the Royalty alows the connection to be legitimized.
If the illegitimate children of royalty were allowed to be conected to the throne then I think it would help the Royals keep it in their p--ts.
So illegitimate children in my opinion in a good idea for the throne and the wives of the royals!

I have seen through out history that when a King was not very religious that he often conducted his business the way he wanted. In ancient Wales there was a King where his favorite son was illegitimate so he made him the successor to his rule even though the church did not approve of it. Ultimately I think it is the church tiring to illegitimacy from taking place. However I don't think that this worked very well. Just look at how many of the Kings ran around on their wives.
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Didn't the Dutch Prince Bernard's illegitimate daughters get their equal share of their inheritance when he passed, together with the four Dutch princess'?
I believe you are right
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  #77  
Old 10-30-2010, 06:49 PM
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Inheritance rights are quite different and separate to succession rights and shouldn't be mixed up or confused.
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  #78  
Old 10-30-2010, 07:15 PM
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Imagine if such a law were passed where the first born of the heir to the throne would automatically succeed him. It wouldn't matter what the sex of the child was or the martial status of the heir. First born is first born. No and, ifs or buts about it. So if the heir has a child with his girlfriend, then this child is the heir. If he marries someone other that his girlfriend and they have a child, then that child is second in line to the throne. I imagine his marriage prospects would be more limited as how many women would marry this heir knowing that any children she has with him will play second fiddle as far as succession rights goes. Second in line.

Fur will fly if the heir is a married man with no children. If he already has children, the fur will still fly.

This would never happen because the status quo and distribution of power would be threatened by this especially if the first born were female or a lot of first borns were females.

The children of royals who are born out of wedlock have generally not been heirs of the throne. Prince Albert is an exception to that but I can't think of any other male royal who is an heir to a throne who is known to have fathered a child out of wedlock, as least in modern times.

I don't know if this is true, but someone told me that a male royal who fathers a child out of wedlock is more likely to have a female child than a male child (60/40 I believe is what this person told me). When you go back in history some of them had many more daughters than sons. It would be interesting if someone did a study on this to see what the statistic is on it.
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  #79  
Old 11-14-2010, 08:24 AM
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King Charles II of England had quite a few
As did William IV and several of Queen Victoria's uncles.
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  #80  
Old 11-24-2010, 06:59 AM
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Emily, Benjamin and Mark Lascelles (grandchildren of Princess Mary, daughter of HM King George V) were born out of wedlock so are excluded from the line of succession to the throne.
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