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  #21  
Old 04-15-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Frideswide View Post
Regent is very different from consort.
Yes it it, the Swedish Order of Succession is talking about becoming a regent, not about becoming a royal consort of another country. That would mean that it could technically be possible for Estelle to be both queen of Sweden suo jure and queen of Denmark as queen consort, but that a child from such a marriage would be excluded from inheriting the Swedish throne.
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  #22  
Old 04-15-2013, 01:03 PM
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Another example:

William III&II and Mary II

William governed as Stadtholder Holland, Zeeland, Utrecht, Gelderland and Overijssel from 1672 on and became English King in 1689, reigning together with his wife there.
A Stadtholder was not a King. We had a Republic at that time. "De Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden" The Stadholder was appointed by the gouvernement. Officially the Stadholder did not inherit the title. Because the government choose every time someone of the same family, it looks like it was a title that one inherited, but it was not.
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  #23  
Old 04-15-2013, 01:20 PM
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The Swedish Order of Succession says that a prince or princess of the Swedish Royal House can't become regent of an other country by election, inheritance or marriage without the permission of the monarch and the Swedish parliament. Without the permission the prince or princess will loose their and their children's right to succeed the Swedish throne. (Successionsordningen §8)
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Originally Posted by Meraude View Post
Yes it it, the Swedish Order of Succession is talking about becoming a regent, not about becoming a royal consort of another country. That would mean that it could technically be possible for Estelle to be both queen of Sweden suo jure and queen of Denmark as queen consort, but that a child from such a marriage would be excluded from inheriting the Swedish throne.
Actually a child from that marriage could inherit the Swedish throne - he or she just couldn't inherit both thrones.

Say Estelle were to marry the Cambridge Baby and have 2 kids. They each become monarch of their respective nations, suo jure, and consort of their spouse's nations. Then one day Cambridge dies, and their eldest child becomes monarch of Britain. Now that eldest child is excluded from the line of succession to the Swedish throne - making the second child monarch of Sweden on Estelle's death.

Or, conversely, Estelle dies first, and the eldest child inherits her throne, making him or her ineligible to inherit another throne by Swedish law. Therefore he/she renounces his rights to the British throne, and when Cambridge baby dies the second child becomes monarch.
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Old 04-15-2013, 01:39 PM
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So that means that both the first-child and the second-child have chances in both of their parents countries. Now that's not unfair anymore, it all depends on the first death among their parents. So I suppose they would be educated with both cultures and costumes, because it would be hard to predict which one they would reign in the future.
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  #25  
Old 04-15-2013, 02:27 PM
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That's the way that I interpret it, at least. It doesn't say that a heir cannot be in the line of succession to another throne, just that they can't inherit another throne without permission.

I would argue that having multiple children and letting them inherit based on who dies first is the solution to the general "problem" of heirs marrying in a modern world. This way there's no need for any argument about which throne gets which heir, or what not.

There is also the fact that there are different conditions to succession - notably gender. So, say an heir of a nation that allows for the eldest child, regardless of gender, to inherit marries the heir of a nation that doesn't, and the first born child is a daughter - then the heir is a different person. It gets tricky when you have different religions at play - if a Catholic heir marries a Protestant heir then that makes things tricky, at least depending on the monarchy.
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  #26  
Old 04-15-2013, 02:36 PM
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But if you see how much work it is to be "only" monarch in one country, it would mean that both Young Cambridge and his wife Estelle actually live at the airports of London and Stockholm and in the planes, while as soon as they touch down there is work to do... And more good causes to neglect. Hardly worth living, that life, throne or no throne...
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2013, 03:00 PM
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Philip of Spain and Mary Tudor are one example. Philip was effectively ruling his father's domains at the time, as Charles V had retired to a monastery. Another is Mary Queen of Scots and the Dauphin of France, but he died before he could become king. I don't think there's usually any law that either has to give up their rights to the succession.

Philip II's grandparents, Philip of Burgundy and Juana of Aragon, and Philip of Burgundy's parents, the Emperor Maximilian and Mary of Burgundy, were further examples, as were Anne of Brittany and Charles of France, and Eleanor of Aquitaine and first Louis of France and then Henry of England. In Juana's case, she only became queen of Aragon and Castile due to the death of her siblings, and in the other cases a powerful husband was deliberately chosen as it was felt that a state ruled by a female monarch was vulnerable and needed protection. Oh, and Ferdinand and Isabella, of course - the deliberate decision to unify two kingdoms, which Henry VIII and Edward I both hoped to do by marrying their sons to Scottish queens but which in their cases never happened.

No-one ever had to give up their rights of succession in any of those cases.
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:17 PM
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But if you see how much work it is to be "only" monarch in one country, it would mean that both Young Cambridge and his wife Estelle actually live at the airports of London and Stockholm and in the planes, while as soon as they touch down there is work to do... And more good causes to neglect. Hardly worth living, that life, throne or no throne...
Hardly worth living? Not necessarily. After all Her Majesty, the Queen, is constitutional Monarch of several countries, too, and it works.
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  #29  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:31 PM
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I agree. I think if two heirs fell in love and wanted to get married they could make it work. I think the one real big issue would be religion.

Say Prince X of the Catholic royal family of Y fell in love and married Princess A of the Protestant royal family of B, and both Y and B had the religious beliefs of it's heirs, monarchs, and consorts determined by law, then either one or both will have to give up the their succession rights and/or religion.
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  #30  
Old 04-15-2013, 04:45 PM
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I agree. I think if two heirs fell in love and wanted to get married they could make it work. I think the one real big issue would be religion.

.
I think the real issue would be each countries reactions to their monarch spending time outside the nation playing consort to another nations monarch. When they travel on a state visit how would they be received, as monarch and consort or a 2 reigning monarchs. I think both nations would become dissatisfied with their monarchs and support for the monarchy would drop like a lead balloon. There would certainly be complaints about money being spent on a foreign monarch even when they are playing the consort role.
I doubt any nation would allow this to happen in todays world and one would have to agree to renounce their succession rights before marriage.
Certainly no country would allow the succesion to their throne to be the random lottery draw of eldest child succeeds to first throne available and number 2 gets the 2nd throne. What happens if only one child is born to the marriage.

I expect they would follow the example of Anne Marie of Denmark who was required to give up her succession rights in order to marry the reigning King of Greece.
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  #31  
Old 04-15-2013, 07:38 PM
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While QEII is queen of several countries, each of them other than the UK has a governor-general that represents the queen in the oversee realms. Since the age of dynastic marriages is over, it seems unlikely that 2 heirs would marry. Maybe in the scadanivian royals since they seem to interact more than the British.
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  #32  
Old 04-16-2013, 01:26 PM
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Actually a child from that marriage could inherit the Swedish throne - he or she just couldn't inherit both thrones.

Say Estelle were to marry the Cambridge Baby and have 2 kids. They each become monarch of their respective nations, suo jure, and consort of their spouse's nations. Then one day Cambridge dies, and their eldest child becomes monarch of Britain. Now that eldest child is excluded from the line of succession to the Swedish throne - making the second child monarch of Sweden on Estelle's death.

Or, conversely, Estelle dies first, and the eldest child inherits her throne, making him or her ineligible to inherit another throne by Swedish law. Therefore he/she renounces his rights to the British throne, and when Cambridge baby dies the second child becomes monarch.
When it comes to inheriting the Swedish throne, there is also the demand in the Order of the Succession that any heir must be of the Swedish Lutheran Church, be a Swedish citizen, and the Swedish parliament would probably also demand that the heir(s) to the throne would have to live in and go to school in Sweden, which would be very difficult to arrange if one of the parents were a monarch or heir of an other country.

I don't know what demands there are on a heir to the British throne, but doesn't they have to be a member of the Church of England?
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  #33  
Old 04-16-2013, 01:47 PM
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The British monarch is Supreme Governor of the Church of England, but - and I may be wrong here - AFAIK the only requirement in terms of "belonging" to a religion is that they not be Catholic, and the same for a spouse. Prince Philip converted from Greek Orthodoxy to Anglicanism before his marriage, but I don't think he was actually required to do so. I'm not sure if George I and George II were ever officially "received" into the Church of England.
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  #34  
Old 04-16-2013, 01:52 PM
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There are precedents for a younger child inheriting a throne. Prince Alfred, Queen Victoria and Prince Albert's second son, became Duke of Saxe-Coburg when Albert's brother died, because it was felt that the Prince of Wales couldn't be both Duke of Saxe-Coburg and future British monarch. In that case, being Duke of Saxe-Coburg was very much "junior" to becoming king of Britain, so it's not quite the same thing, but that's what was done there.
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  #35  
Old 04-16-2013, 01:54 PM
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I think it's generally accepted that the monarch has to be CofE (although they go to Church of Scotland services while in Scotland), but the heir and their consorts simply cannot be Catholic.
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  #36  
Old 04-24-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BritishRoyalist View Post
You mean their kids if they had any or One of the spouse (future Kung/Quuen) would have to remove themselves from theline of succession? That probably make most sense. It sure would cause some complications not just for them but for both Royal Houses.
I meant one of the spouse, sorry for not being clear.

I would be a quite complicated situation, as many said before, but not impossible. It happened before. Isabella II of Spain married the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (if I'm not wrong), but since he had other brothers he was the one who renounced.

I don't think they could both keep their roles and becoming King and Queen of both their countries. because generally when a Prince marries a foreigner, she takes her husband's citizenship. That's what happened in recent years with Maxima and Mary. I think you can't be, for example, Swedish and Danish at the same time and be a Head of the State in a country and First Lady (or First Man) in another.

I think the easiest and less disrespectful decision would be (if possible) that both give up their succession rights.
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2014, 10:16 PM
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I don't know this has been asked before and if this has ever happened either. I have been wondering what if a Futre King married a Futre Queen of another Country? Let just suppose that the Future King and Heir to the Britsh Throne marries The Future Quern and Heir to the Sweedish Throne? Can that happen? And how would that change Titles and Succession?
All marriages of princes or princesses of Sweden have to be authorized by the Swedish government upon a request by the sitting monarch, but, in principle, there is no a priori rule barring the heir (or heiress) to the throne from marrying the heir to another crown. If, however , a prince or princess of Sweden becomes the head of state of another country without the consent of the Swedish monarch and the Swedish parliament, he/she automatically loses his/her succession rights in Sweden.

In practice, intermarriage between heirs is currently avoided to prevent some of the aforementioned complications from arising. Marriages between an heir and members of a foreign royal house who are further down in their own line of succession would be acceptable though, and were actually very common in the history of British/Scandinavian relations, see e.g. the marriage of Maud of Wales with (BrEng to ?) Haakon VII of Norway and the two marriages of Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden, respectively with Princess Margaret of Connaught and Lady Louise Mountbatten (the former a granddaughter and the latter a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria). Lord Louis Mountbatten, Lady Louise's brother, is actually rumored, according to some sources, to have plotted to match Carl Gustaf of Sweden with Princess Anne of the United Kingdom, but Carl Gustaf allegedly showed no interest in her.
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Old 07-27-2014, 04:06 PM
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If both Sweden and England demand their sovereign be of the countries religion, would they allow a late conversion? If George and Estelle marry and have 2 kids who are raised in both countries customs would it be acceptable that they both are also raised in both countries religions until the time it becomes apparent which one will inherit which throne and only then become a full fledged member of the church?
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  #39  
Old 07-28-2014, 04:34 PM
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If both Sweden and England demand their sovereign be of the countries religion, would they allow a late conversion? If George and Estelle marry and have 2 kids who are raised in both countries customs would it be acceptable that they both are also raised in both countries religions until the time it becomes apparent which one will inherit which throne and only then become a full fledged member of the church?
If I am not mistaken, the Church of England (CofE) is now in full communion with the Lutheran Church of Sweden (CofSw). I suppose then that George's and Estelle's (hypothetical) children could be baptized and raised in the CofSw, as required by the Swedish Act of Succession, and still be eligible to succeed to the British throne, being Protestant and in communion with the CofE. Am I right ?
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  #40  
Old 07-30-2014, 09:12 AM
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A Stadtholder was not a King. We had a Republic at that time. "De Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden" The Stadholder was appointed by the gouvernement. Officially the Stadholder did not inherit the title. Because the government choose every time someone of the same family, it looks like it was a title that one inherited, but it was not.
Actually in 1674 the office of the Stadtholder was made hereditary for Willem III of Nassau, Prince of Orange and all his descendants from the body male. This arrangement ended automatically when the line of Willem III became extinct.

In 1675 the States of Friesland made the office of the Stadtholder hereditary for Hendrik Casimir II of Nassau-Dietz and all his descendants from the body male. His son Johan Willem Friso of Nassau would become Stadtholder of all the United Provinces. The hereditary office however was only for Friesland.

In 1747 the office of the Stadtholder was made hereditary again in all the United Provinces for Willem IV of Orange-Nassau, Prince of Orange, and his descendants of both the body male and female. Willem IV had two children, a son and a daughter, both successors to the office of the Stadtholder. The son, Willem V, is in the line of the present Dutch royal family. The daughter, Carolina, is in the line of the present Luxembourgian royal family.

The United Provinces were called a "republic" but it was in all but the name no republic at all. No any citizen could vote for the power of the State, even the lower offices as those of Mayor were "distributed" amongst the patrician families.
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