Queen Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh: Visit to Australia - October 19-29, 2011


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Iluvbertie said:
I would never curtsey to anyone - they are no better than me so why? I wouldn't curtsey the the US President so why curtsey to someone else in the same position?
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As is your right and as was the right of the Prime Minister, whatever her reasons.

From what you've said above, you appear to consider it a gesture in recognition of the indavidual where as I'd consider it an expression of respect for the office that's held.

I'd not curtsey to the US President either, as it's not customary to do so within that culture.
 
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duchessrachel said:
I agree. If the Queen visited the United States and I had the opportunity to meet her, I would still curtesy. Even though America is not under the Monarchy anymore, it is just a sign of respect for her.
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I'm in complete agreement. I don't know how to curtsey, but I would bow my head as a sign of respect to any member of a royal family.
 
Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | World News :: Queen meets PM and opposition chief

Australia's turbulent political landscape and minority government were the topics of conversation when the Queen met the country's opposition leader.

Queen receives Gillard, Abbott in separate private meetings | The Australian

The Queen and Prime Minister Julia Gillard have exchanged pleasantries about Canberra's stunning weather and the Floriade flower festival.

The Queen is receiving the prime minister and, later, Opposition leader Tony Abbott at Government House.
 
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Getty Images gallery from the two meetings with Gillard and Abbot. The lovely weather Australia has been having has been one of the Queen's frequent comment.
 
Madame Royale said:
As is your right and as was the right of the Prime Minister, whatever her reasons.

From what you've said above, you appear to consider it a gesture in recognition of the indavidual where as I'd consider it an expression of respect for the office that's held.

I'd not curtsey to the US President either, as it's not customary to do so within that culture.
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The office is one of Head of State - so either you treat all Heads of State the same way or your say some are better than others as they are treated differently.

I don't curtsey to anyone as I firmly believe that we are all born equal and that we will all be equal in the eyes of God on judgement day.

Julia Gillard has always been on the left side of politics so that isn't surprising that she would take that attitude but I do think that any person who curtsies to another is simply saying 'I am not as good as you - I am inferior to you' - and in the 21st Century that is an outdated viewpoint.
 
I do love our Parliament House. It's a wonderful building and is well worth the visit should any of you travel to Australia.

A relative of mine worked for the Senate, and is currently working for Prime Minister and Cabinet and once took me on a tour of the entire complex, including the basement which is a lively maze of kitchens, trucks, golf buggies and people. It's enormous.

I even rather cheekily sat in the Prime Minister's office chair and took the opportunity to have my photo taken. Parliament was not sitting at the time.

The office is one of Head of State - so either you treat all Heads of State the same way or your say some are better than others as they are treated differently.
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Disagree. Different institutions have different codes of conduct that have been observed and are still observed by those who feel it appropriate. It's not suggesting one head of state is better than another, it does however highlight the cultural differences that exist between them. Imo, theres absolutely nothing wrong with that.

I don't curtsey to anyone as I firmly believe that we are all born equal and that we will all be equal in the eyes of God on judgement day.
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I agree with you that we will all be judged in the eyes of God, but my choosing to curtsey to another mere mortal is hardly going to make a difference where that's concerned.

...but I do think that any person who curtsies to another is simply saying 'I am not as good as you - I am inferior to you' - and in the 21st Century that is an outdated viewpoint.
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As is your opinion, however misguided it appears to me.

I'd quite happily and willingly curtsey to an imperial or royal head of state as is my prerogative to do so.

You say outdated and subservient and I say respectful and appropriate.
 
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The Queen has just finished speaking at the reception at Parliament House - an excellent speech in my opinion. Both the Prime Minister and Opposition Leader made good speeches also, both stating how HM and HRH were welcome parts of Australia. I was shocked that the Queen and the Duke didn't have a drink with the Loyal Toast (all the other VIP's did) but overall it has been appears to have been another successful event.
 
Elly C said:
You can always rely on the Mail to stir up trouble
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Well, for once, it's only reporting the trouble like anyone other newspaper is, all started by Julia herself.
 
:previous: Certainly not. The Prime Minister started no such "trouble".

Ms Gillard observed a correct form of etiquette in the presence of the monarch. Simple as that.

It is the media who started this pathetic campaign.
 
Madame Royale said:
:previous: Certainly not. The Prime Minister started no such "trouble".
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All a matter of opinion. :flowers:
The royal correspondent for the BBC has just said 'what with affection for the current Queen and interest in the next King but one the level of support for the monarchy in Australia seems to be rather stronger now than it has been for many years'

I found the, King but one point, interesting. No mention of Charles.
 
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:previous: Not really opinion, more fact ;)

The Prime Minister observed what is considered by the Court of St James's as being acceptable protocol when greeting the sovereign. Hence, Ms Gillard acted in a perfectly respectable and polite manner.

Prof. David Flint, the head of the Australian Constitutional Monarchy movement himself declared it an absolute farce that the Prime Minister is being picked apart for what is a total non issue.

I would have curtsied, but that's me. Each to their own.

No mention of Charles
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He hasn't travelled to Australia since March of 2005. He's entirely off the radar and it doesn't seem as though that will change any time soon.
 
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Madame Royale said:
As is your opinion, however misguided it appears to me.

I'd quite happily and willingly curtsey to an imperial or royal head of state as is my prerogative to do so.

You say outdated and subservient and I say respectful and appropriate.
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I agree, respectful and appropriate. Australia is not yet a Republic, in fact the last time it was voted it was to keep the Monarchy. Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of Australia until decided otherwise.
Excuse me if I say this, but many people, who no doubt are more important than you are Iluvbertie, have curtsied to the Queen and have shown not that they are inferior but that they have impeccable manners.
 
Whatever Julia Gillard is doing or not doing the Queen is just such a wonderful sight and she has been so gracious and I am totally in love with her look the clothes are really special she and PP are very relaxed and as the woman who presented flowers again after 60 yrs ... those steady eyes ... it's wonderful.
 
I read today that the ACT Chief Minister thinks the Queen could come back for Canberra's centennial in 2013. :)
 
Protocol offers a choice of formal greeting - either a curtsey or a bow of the head. Presumably, if the Palace publicises this ( it's on its web page) and Her Majesty doesn't mind, who are we to object? The issue is merely a media beat-up, trying to embarrass the PM. Judging by the beaming smile she bestowed on Ms Gillard when shaking her hand, I doubt that the Queen even noticed. H.E. Quentin Bryce curtsied, and as she is HM's personal representative in Australia I would have been surprised if she hadn't. Thinking about it, I believe that I, too, would bow and not curtsey should I ever be lucky enough to be presented to the Queen. This would indicate no disrespect towards her: indeed, PM Gillard has made it abundantly clear that she honours, values and respects the monarch. Actually, I have never met a serious, well-intentioned republican who didn't admire and value HM.

Equerries and aide de camps --- equerries are more common in Commonwealth countries and often provide service in the more private sphere, though not exclusively so. The female lieutenant who attended the welcoming party is currently attached to H.E., the Governor-General, and perfectly placed to provide additional service as temporary support to HM's travelling aide-de-camp.

This visit is a great success. Obviously, Her Majesty came to please and be pleased, and I'm in awe of her stamina, her good natured responses to her public and her patience with and delight at the young Australians who have greeted her. The Queen seems much more relaxed to me on this visit. We are told that she really likes Yarralumla (the GG's formal residence in Canberra), its exquisite grounds and gardens, and specifically asked for a tour to the area where the kangaroos run wild. Always an honoured presence, it is gratifying to see her smile and laugh so much: usually, she's her dutiful and dignified self but this time it seems that she's allowing herself more personal reflection and responses. Ditto, HRH Prince Phillip. It is a pity that a visit to New Zealand couldn't be scheduled as well - it is only a few hours away and we can't know when, or if, HM will be able to come to this part of the world again.

I will be attending the opening of the new Royal Children's Hospital next Wednesday. Her Majesty opened the new one in 1963 and as its patron, it's appropriate and exciting that she open this one. It is a truly spectacular building of which we're very proud, particularly of the animal enclosure which has been included to entertain the sick children.

This is proving such a happy and enjoyable visit. How much we shall miss her.
 
Curtsying is so feminine, and you can't force someone to be feminine. Not everyone feels feminine, and one's own identity, as feminine or masculine, is inviolate. The PM did what suited the occasion best on all sides. Queen Elizabeth II doesn't want people feeling uncomfortable in her royal presence, I'm sure. She certainly goes to some trouble to act as if she is enjoying the other people - why would she want them to feel uncomfortable?

The Queen's Peace might be far more disturbed by forcing someone to do something they felt uncomfortable with, regarding her person.
 
Historically, curtseying is demeaning to women and was intended to be so.

A lady's curtsey is a relic of those barbarous days when woman was expected to bend the knee on being ushered into the presence of any man of rank and power, as an acknowledgement of her inferiority.

Says John Aubrey, writing in 1678 "Till this time, the Court itself was unmannered and unpolished. King James's Court was so far from being civil to women, that the ladies, nay, the Queen herself, could hardly pass by without receiving some affront."

I find it pleasing that the Palace has decided to move with the times and show sensitivity towards our more democratic and gender-equality concerned times. Nor can I find that showing deference to the Crown by a bow of the head, by both men and women, in any way compromises obeisance to the Crown.

On a personal level, I was quietly gratified to note upon Her Majesty's arrival, that standing together was our Head of State, the Queen, our wonderful Governor General, our Prime Minister and the Chief Minister of the ACT (Australian Capital Territory - Canberra) - all women!:)
 
I hold not a single concern or hesitation for it as I'm not so insecure in myself to feel as though I'm demeaning my very existence or my gender. In this regard I have nothing to prove nor do I have any war to wage against the structures of what has now become the individual’s ideology of etiquette.

There are cultural observances that are known to have evolved from demands that do not necessarily reflect the best of humanity, though that does not suggest that the reasons why people choose to act in a certain manner in modern times are for the same reasons people were forced to behave in times since past. Again, have we not (and I speak here of western society) advanced into creatures of conscious choice and who are fortunate enough to exercise those rights whichever way we approve?

In the current age I personally don't find this topic to have anything to do with gender equality, though for whatever reason(s) relevant to some, there are those who appear to make it into a case whereby one sex is being treated in a manner that is degrading.

For me (someone who is themselves an involved advocate of women rights), I believe it to be nonsense and certainly anyone who decides to maintain such etiquette is doing so by choice as we have the choice to make these very decisions for ourselves.

Imo, there is neither moral high ground to be won nor any progress to be made as a result of whether or not a woman chooses to curtsey or bow her head. For me it does not signify oppression in the current day but a cultural intrigue that I find rather charming and would myself be content to observe. Others will disagree, naturally.

Whether someone curtsey’s, bows their head or shakes hands, it is equally relevant for those who feel comfortable to do so.
 
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I believe that there was a time when women curtsied to each other in greeting. As for John Aubrey, I see nothing about curtsying in the quote. The suggestion is that there was something being done to women rather than by women that was offending them.:ermm:


Polly said:
Says John Aubrey, writing in 1678 "Till this time, the Court itself was unmannered and unpolished. King James's Court was so far from being civil to women, that the ladies, nay, the Queen herself, could hardly pass by without receiving some affront."
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There are many men and women in the armed forces who, I am sure, don't feel comfortable saluting a General, perhaps they should follow the example of Ms Gillard and show their individuality by not saluting?
The Duke of Windsor demanded a curtsey to his wife, it was not "off with their heads", but if they wanted to be invited again into this particular royal presence they would.
As to the Queen beaming at Ms Gillard being a sign of her not minding at all, I don't think there could be anyone in the world with better manners than The Queen.
 
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