The Sun Newspaper's "Nazi Salute" Publication (and Response): July 2015

[royal rob]

General News & Information for Queen Elizabeth and Duke of Edinburgh

They are saying clip was made in1933 before Hitler got power but Hitler did gain control in 1933 and started removing Jewish business etc. unless I have my dates wrong they would have known what sort of man he was. Didn't the book burning happen in 1933


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[Curryong]

Hitler came to power in February 1933. However the great bulk of anti Jewish legislation wasn't enacted until 1935 (the Nuremberg Laws.) Its my understanding that this film clip comes from some time in 1933.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? The book burnings of May 1933 were probably regarded as 'those nasty Germans/Huns behaving in a nutty way again!' Remember, it was then only fifteen years since the end of the war and there was still animosity in Britain towards Germany and the Germans.

Of course Hitler and many Germans of the time were anti-Semitic and it certainly would not have been comfortable to have been a Jew in Germany in 1933.

However, it's worth noting (according to Shawcross, the QM's biographer) that the Queen Mother's old governess, a German Kathe Kubler, who had taught her before World War One, wrote to her in April 1933 protesting that the British Press were prejudiced against Herr Hitler and had quite the wrong idea about him. (She was later dismissed from her post as headmistress of a big girls school after, according to the QM, they found out she was Jewish.)

 

[royal rob]

Germany 1933 is interesting reading on history pages. For the (then) future king of England not to have known what happen to non-Aryan's during that time is not believable. But as we know the world turned a blind eye. Sorry for my many postings


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[royal rob]

Hitler came to power in February 1933. However the great bulk of anti Jewish legislation wasn't enacted until 1935 (the Nuremberg Laws.) Its my understanding that this film clip comes from some time in 1933.



Of course Hitler and many Germans of the time were anti-Semitic and it certainly would not have been comfortable to have been a Jew in Germany in 1933.



However, it's worth noting (according to Shawcross, the QM's biographer) that the Queen Mother's old governess, a German Kathe Kubler, who had taught her before World War One, wrote to her in April 1933 protesting that the British Press were prejudiced against Herr Hitler and had quite the wrong idea about him. (She was later dismissed from her post as headmistress of a big girls school after, according to the QM, they found out she was Jewish.)

Yes it would not have been "comfortable " to be a Jew and have your business closed even if for just a day and not allowed to follow some of your rituals


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[Curryong]

No, royal rob, it is, as you say, all very interesting, and sheds a light once more on a horrible period of European history.

However, I don't think you can blame Britain or the BRF (even Edward) for what was going on in Germany after Hitler came to power. The British were still traumatised by four years of war and the loss of nearly a million men (including a brother of Elizabeth's) and so preferred to regard Hitler and the Nazis as at first, figures of fun and then increasing irritations, until it was almost too late.

 

[eya]

This looks bad now but remember it was 1933 and years before the war even started. No one had any idea what was coming.

As the Palace stated, the time and context are important.

Yes agree unfortunately no one had idea what was coming. And obviously for the Queen it is a game she is only 7 years old.

Dodging a bullet implies luck. As far as Edward VIII is concerned though, I doubt it was just a lucky coincidence. My impression is that the British government was fully aware that he was a Nazi sympathizer and that must have played a major part in the abdication ( with Mrs. Simpson of course providing a convenient excuse).

I agree.I believe the most importand reason fot the abdication was the Nazis and not the Wallis Simpson but of course the helped and that too.

 

[ladongas]

I think they may have been learning to do the highland fling. The hand and arm positions look more like that than a heil salute. And they were in Scotland....

 

[Muhler]

No, royal rob, it is, as you say, all very interesting, and sheds a light once more on a horrible period of European history.

However, I don't think you can blame Britain or the BRF (even Edward) for what was going on in Germany after Hitler came to power. The British were still traumatised by four years of war and the loss of nearly a million men (including a brother of Elizabeth's) and so preferred to regard Hitler and the Nazis as at first, figures of fun and then increasing irritations, until it was almost too late.

You are right, Curryong.

If anyone back in 1933 would have suggested the idea that the Nazis should, let alone would, commit industrialized genocide the vast majority, even among the Nazis, would consider it half-mad ramblings.

Mussolini was no doubt the most well known fascist leader at the time and many in Britain, also within the BRF, would no doubt consider him a somewhat comical figure rather than a serious danger.

But there were fascist movements all over Europe (and Japan) at the time. Even though the majority of these movements were still of minor importance.
And there were several authoritarian regimes in Europe at the time as well, not to mention the Soviet Union.
The idea of a "strong leader" wasn't as unpalatable then as it is now.

That the Nazis back then were anti-Semitic was hardly headline news! Jews were persecuted with more or less enthusiasm outside Germany as well, in other countries they were barely tolerated. So in the eyes of outsiders the Nazis were just another movement blaming the Jews for everything.
Even supposedly well-informed and well educated people at the time had a wrong impression of the fascist movements. While at the same time, and that is important, they were scared of the Communists.

Another thing is that racism was not politically incorrect at the time. In fact it was taught in schools and shown in movie-documentaries. That includes racism towards Jews.

If this movie had been made in 1953 then there would be just cause for condemnation. But I can't blame people back in 1933 for not being able to see into the future.

 

[Nice Nofret]

My great grandfather was an editor and lawyer; my greatgrandmother was jewish - they left germany in August 1933 as it became clear to my family, that it was no longer a country to live in with jewish origins. (I know that so precisly because I own some furniture still with custom-stamps on them from August 1933).

However I can very well see, that 'Herr Hitler' and that hideous ' 'Nazi-Gruss' was a thing one made fun of - like Charly Chaplin did - and many others too. If one sees film-footage of that time, it is too bizaar for words how they behaved. Of course the world made fun of them! It took some time to see, that they wherent just vile clowns. Now we have ISIS - in the 30th and 40th the world had the Nazis... then there where the Red Khmer and Idi Amin - and some more vile crazy murderous

I cannot understand that not more is done to get ISIS out of the world. The only diffrence with ISIS is not yet in Europe ...

 

[Nico]

I guess the Queen is just positively disgusted this morning by this revolting headline (and i can't imagine Philipp's reaction). This is just the lowest you can get from this kind of press.
Rupert Murdoch is a vile man, end of it.

 

[Lumutqueen]

It has been implied that The Sun has published "stolen" footage. This is family archive material so it's clearly been leaked somehow.

The crux of this story is the year, it's just stirring the pot for no reason.

I hope The Sun is held accountable for this.

 

[JR76]

General News & Information for Queen Elizabeth and Duke of Edinburgh

The Sun can go on acting as if it's a serious act of journalism all they want but we all know they're just out to get the Windsors. It's pure spite from those bastards.
I'm sure if we had footage of Prince Philip getting the news it would make his "f***ing picture" remark seem like something out of the "Song of Songs"


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[rominet09]

Disgusting to publish these pix....for the sake of information ? No way !

 

[Rudolph]

The only reason the pictures were published was to humiliate the Queen and her mother. We all know Edward VIII was a Nazi sympathiser. Not exactly breaking news.

Not sure why Rupert Murdoch wants to pick this fight now with BP. The Queen is at the height of her popularity.

 

[Mbruno]

The film clip, as I understand it, was made before Hitler even assumed power. They couldn't possibly have known what Nazism would evolve into at the time.
To them it would have been just another fascist movement, like so many others in Europe at the time. Whether they at the time had sympathies for the fascists/Nazis is anyone's guess. After all on the surface fascism represented a kind of disciplined order with conservative values. I think the Communists would have worried the BRF more at the time.

Anyway, if people are to get heat for stupid and/or tasteless jokes and goofing around within what is supposed to be the safety of a family circle, we'd all be in trouble! (I sure would).

The only one who is blameless in all this is QEII.

The movie is supposed to be from 1933 or 1934, i.e shortly after Hitler came to power. Saying, however, that people at that time could not foresee what nazism would become is NOT a valid excuse. While I acknowledge no one at the time could have predicted the scale for example of the Holocaust, it is also true that Nazi ideology and methods were well-known by the time Hitler rose to power (Mein Kampf was written in the 1920s and stormtroopers and intimidatiion were standard Nazi practices before the party was in government).

Besides, fascism itself was an authoritarian and undemocratic form of state organization. Mussolini had been a dictator for over 10 years in Italy by 1933 and, after the Enabling Act in Germany, Hitler had banned all other political parties and turned parliament into a symbolic rubber-stamper. There is NO WAY an educated person with genuine liberal convictions ( in the Anglo-Saxon tradition) would mistake fascism just as a movement for " order and discipline" .

Yes, communism was probably the biggest fear of the Western elites in the 1930s, but what sets Britain, the US, Scandinavia or tbe Benelux countries apart from Germany, Italy, Spain or others is precisely that, instead of turning to fascism as a response to the Depression and the threat of communism, they stuck to their own liberal democratic values. Much has been said about Fascist movements in Britain in the 30s, but the historic fact is that fascism, às a political movement, never enjoyed great electoral success in the UK. Personally, I'm glad though that Edward VIII was not the King in the course of WWii. Although he probably could not have prevented Britain from going into war in 1939, he could have been a factor in pushing for an armistice in 1940.

 

[royal rob]

It has been implied that The Sun has published "stolen" footage. This is family archive material so it's clearly been leaked somehow.

The crux of this story is the year, it's just stirring the pot for no reason.

I hope The Sun is held accountable for this.

But can we say it's stolen if it is sold by someone who owned it. I'm thinking it was given to someone in Germany as part of joke ( their idea of a joke most certainly not mine ) as in look we are like hitler. All these years later it has been found and sold on to the Sun. I don't see if it was kept in the royal family how the Sun could get it. Plus I would think it would have been burnt. However it got to the Sun it has been very disturbing to see and personally I feel sick to my stomach

 

[Rudolph]

The footage is strange, even alien. The Royal family in 1933 or 1934, playing on a lawn, egged on by the Prince of Wales, later Edward VIII, to give a Nazi salute. Many viewers will feel discomfort; the Palace has signaled its disappointment that the image has been made public. But the past is the past. We have to view historical events in their context – not from hindsight.

In 1933/1934, no one knew what Hitler would do – the Second World War and the Holocaust were years away. Moreover, the British regarded affairs in Germany largely in terms of how they would affect Britain. Would the Nazis save Europe from communist revolution? Would the regime even survive the decade? Would fascism threaten the empire? Or would Hitler prove to be a paper tiger? It goes without saying that children waving their arms about in a Scottish garden offered no kind of endorsement – but there were significant, intelligent men and women who did. Lloyd George called Hitler a “remarkable man”. George Bernard Shaw said that the Nazi movement “is in many respects one which has my warmest sympathy.” There is footage of Shaw on film giving a little fascist salute when discussing Mussolini.

More: The Royal family could not possibly have known the true wickedness of Hitler - Telegraph

 

[Mbruno]

More: The Royal family could not possibly have known the true wickedness of Hitler - Telegraph

In any case, the Queen is blameless in this particular film as she was just a little girl playing along. The movie is somewhat more embarrassing for the late Queen Mother although we don't really know the context of that footage.

Having said that, the Queen Mother's actions during the war prove that she was a valuable asset in the fight against Nazi Germany and more than redeems her IMHO.

 

[Rudolph]

Reassuringly, not even anti-monarchists are making mischief out of today’s pictures of an eight-year-old Queen being shown by her uncle how to make a Nazi salute. It’s a striking picture, but as everyone knows, it simply did not mean then what it means now. It was taken in 1933, when the full horrors of Nazism had not begun. It’s possible that the eight-year-old Queen was not following the rapidly-changing events in Germany very carefully. Hitlerism – with its uniforms, goose-stepping and other weird gestures – was seen by most Brits as a strange phase that Germany would soon grow out of. Hitler’s antics were looked upon with fascination and horror, but with mockery, too.

The Hitler Salute was certainly in the news in 1933; that year, all German schoolchildren were required by law to greet teachers (even priests) with the salute. So I very much doubt that the Queen was the only eight-year-old British girl to have messed about in this way. If Russia suddenly required all of its school kids to greet teachers with the ‘live long and prosper’ Star Trek Spock salute – no less ridiculous – I suspect a lot of it would be going round British classrooms now.

More: The Queen won't have been the only British girl messing about with Nazi salutes in 1933 - Spectator Blogs

 

[Curryong]

I've read somewhere today that a number of reels of film have been released in the last few months from royal archives in order that a retrospective be made by the BBC of the Queen's 63 years on the throne in September. It could be that the few seconds of film that's in contention was on one of these reels and someone copied it and sold it to the Sun newspaper.

 

[Osipi]

To somewhat keep things in perspective, I watched a documentary last week on Hitler's regime and the Nazi tenet that the Aryan race was the best and dominant race. It was stated that Hitler aimed to prove this at the world wide gathering of the Berlin Olympic games of 1936. It really must have rankled him when black American Jesse Owens made history winning 4 gold medals in track and field. Checking my facts, I found this video clip and in retrospect, its the first time I've seen the American stars and stripes flying next to the Nazi flag.

Even in 1936, I think the world still mostly treated the Nazi regime with an laissez faire attitude.

http://www.olympic.org/videos/jesse-owens-s-inspiring-history

 

[Mbruno]

To somewhat keep things in perspective, I watched a documentary last week on Hitler's regime and the Nazi tenet that the Aryan race was the best and dominant race. It was stated that Hitler aimed to prove this at the world wide gathering of the Berlin Olympic games of 1936. It really must have rankled him when black American Jesse Owens made history winning 4 gold medals in track and field. Checking my facts, I found this video clip and in retrospect, its the first time I've seen the American stars and stripes flying next to the Nazi flag.

Even in 1936, I think the world still mostly treated the Nazi regime with an laissez faire attitude.

http://www.olympic.org/videos/jesse-owens-s-inspiring-history

As I said, British view of fascism and Hitler in particular was mostly negative. However, as was also mentioned here, the trauma of WWI was still very much alive in people's minds and Britons overwhelmingly did not want another war. That is why appeasement was so popular as late as 1938 and, incidentally, was publicly backed by King George Vi himself.

To the King's credit though, it must be said that, in 1940, although he personally would have preferred Halifax, he acted within the bounds of constitutional monarchy and followed Chamberlain's advice to name Churchill prime minister when Chamberlain resigned. Later then, when Churchill predictably rejected the armistice, the King and his family became fully committed to the war effort.

 

[Dman]

Niraj Tanna ‏@IkonPictures 3h3 hours ago
Many online newspapers seem outraged today. Outraged at the fact The Sun got the scoop. They wouldn't have hesitated for a second.

True, other media outlet would've done the same. They really don't care about the innocence of the video. The scoop is more important to them.

 

[Rudolph]

When Niraj Tanna is trotted out to justify the video, you know the Sun has really lost the plot.

 

[Madame Verseau]

I read about this story about the Queen doing the Nazi salute when she was 7 in the Daily Mail. What the Sun did was low. One, she couldn't be held responsible, she wouldn't have understanding at the time. It's known that Edward VIII (Duke of Windsor) was a Nazi sympathizer. If he were the subject of the story it should have stayed with him. Dragging the Queen was unnecessary. Rupert Murdoch, I've read, is an anti-monarchist and he owns The Sun. If he was hoping to turn the public against the House of Windsor it backfired big time, judging from comments on message boards and social media. I'd like to know how did The Sun get a hold of a private tape. The Sun claim it got it by legitimate channels, but how does that work in the UK?

 

[Lumutqueen]

But can we say it's stolen if it is sold by someone who owned it. I'm thinking it was given to someone in Germany as part of joke ( their idea of a joke most certainly not mine ) as in look we are like hitler. All these years later it has been found and sold on to the Sun. I don't see if it was kept in the royal family how the Sun could get it. Plus I would think it would have been burnt. However it got to the Sun it has been very disturbing to see and personally I feel sick to my stomach

Why would they burn what is clearly footage of the children on holiday at balmoral?

This was filmed approx 82 years ago, I doubt anyone remembers what was on it.

I don't see why the royals would give family footage away to Germany? What reason would they do that for?

 

[Princess of Durham]

How would the paper get that footage? It's a family movie so how would it get out I find that more interesting than what their doing. Could be a good story behind that. Who had it, how much did they get for it and have they any other private things. Was it a member of the royal family or staff fallen on hard times. I would love to know.


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I clearly remember as a child with my brother marching around "goose step" style and calling out "Heil Hitler" and believe me it was pure mockery!!! I'm with you in being very curious as to how this has come to see the light of day.

 

[Rudolph]

Possibly the cheapest shot that can be fired at anyone in public life is to draw attention to something he or she did as a child. The next cheapest shot is to seek to embarrass the Queen, who by convention cannot answer back and who has, in any case, served the country blamelessly for 63 years and hardly merits attack.

So to do both in one bound is quite an achievement, especially when it carries a sensationalist inference of trivializing Nazism, one of the vilest political creeds in history. It is hard to conceive of any insult to the Queen graver than implying that she was, at the ripe old age of seven, some sort of casual supporter of Hitler – yet this is what the stills from the video made available yesterday for the first time in 82 years seem to convey.

More: The Royal family was not alone: Britons everywhere spent the Thirties mocking Hitler - Telegraph

 

[Sancia]

Niraj Tanna ‏@IkonPictures 3h3 hours ago
Many online newspapers seem outraged today. Outraged at the fact The Sun got the scoop. They wouldn't have hesitated for a second.

True, other media outlet would've done the same. They really don't care about the innocence of the video. The scoop is more important to them.

I fully agree. Journalists don't publish every news they have, even when if it sounds to be a scoop. A journalist is supposed to put things into perspective. The video is showing a seven years old girl making giving a nazi salute. Since humanity is humanity, young children copy their parents' gesture, until they are mature enough to distance themselves and take the time to forge their own mind. Princess Elizabeth was no exception. Lumping her with the then prince of Wales and the then duke of York is dishonest.

 

[BMC]

Niraj Tanna ‏@IkonPictures 3h3 hours ago
Many online newspapers seem outraged today. Outraged at the fact The Sun got the scoop. They wouldn't have hesitated for a second.

True, other media outlet would've done the same. They really don't care about the innocence of the video. The scoop is more important to them.

Absolutely. The media would sell their own mothers if it meant they could scoop the competition.

The hypocrisy and self-righteousness of the media never ceases to amaze and disgust me at the same time.