The Queen: Would She Consider Abdication or Retirement?


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I believe there is only room left in St George's Chapel for two persons. Guess who these will be... ? So you are right indeed.

:flowers:
I'm pretty sure I've read in numerous books (none of which I have to hand of course) that the King George VI Memorial Chapel was built with room for six coffins. There is room for The Queen and Duke of Edinburgh, and for Charles and Camilla. William and his successors will have to find a new place.
 
That is what I have been told a number of times by guides in St George's as well. I also still have some papers from the time that the chapel was built that say it was built for six - George VI, Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Elizabeth II, Philip, Charles and initially wife but now, obviously Camilla.
 
That is what I have been told a number of times by guides in St George's as well. I also still have some papers from the time that the chapel was built that say it was built for six - George VI, Elizabeth the Queen Mother, Elizabeth II, Philip, Charles and initially wife but now, obviously Camilla.

But at the time of the death of Princess Margaret it was reported that she was cremated so that she could be buried in the George VI. Memorial Chapel because otherwise there would be not enough space.

I believe there is only room left in St George's Chapel for two persons. Guess who these will be... ? So you are right indeed.
There is still the Royal Vault. Or they could find a special place in the Chapel like it was done for King George V. and Queen Mary or for King Edward VII. and Queen Alexandra.
 
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But at the time of the death of Princess Margaret it was reported that she was cremated so that she could be buried in the George VI. Memorial Chapel because otherwise there would be not enough space.

Correct - because it was never intended that Margaret would be buried in there - there was only room for six coffins and they had planned for them to be George VI, Elizabeth II, Charles and their respective consorts. Even in 2002 it was regarded as possible that Charles might marry again - whether it was Camilla or someone else wasn't known but they had to cater for that possibility and so Margaret had to either be cremated or buried somewhere else. She wished to be cremated to be buried with her parents as there was no room in there for her, if she wanted a coffin but she could be put in an urn.

There is still the Royal Vault. Or they could find a special place in the Chapel like it was done for King George V. and Queen Mary or for King Edward VII. and Queen Alexandra.
I have been told that the reason why they built the George VI chapel was that the body of St George's is now full and that there will not be any more burials in the body of the church at all.
 
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There is still the Royal Vault. Or they could find a special place in the Chapel like it was done for King George V. and Queen Mary or for King Edward VII. and Queen Alexandra.

Is the Royal Vault in Windsor alike the Orange-Nassau vault in Delft? A stairway leading to a cellar under the church/chapel where dozens of coffins are placed ?

The last one has "space problems" too but at the moment they are re-arranging the placement of the coffins in Orange-Nassau vaults so that there will be enough place for future generations. I assume the same can be done with the Royal Vaults in Windsor. A grave is a grave. It can only house one coffin (maybe two) but of course vaults leave more options by clever spatial planning.
 
Is the Royal Vault in Windsor alike the Orange-Nassau vault in Delft? A stairway leading to a cellar under the church/chapel where dozens of coffins are placed ?

I think so. And there are even 2 Vaults one in the Quire where among otheres King Henry VIII. and one of his many wives are buried and a newer one the Royal Vault which was started to use from King Eroge III. onwards.
 
Is the Royal Vault in Windsor alike the Orange-Nassau vault in Delft? A stairway leading to a cellar under the church/chapel where dozens of coffins are placed ?

I'm sure there are stairs somewhere so that the vault can be accessed, but they aren't as visible or dramatic as that.

There's an access of some type right in the middle of the quire. George VI's body was kept there temporarily while the memorial chapel was being prepared, and for his funeral, the catafalque was put on top of a lift that went down to the vault. You can see pictures from before and after that here.
 
I think so. And there are even 2 Vaults one in the Quire where among otheres King Henry VIII. and one of his many wives are buried and a newer one the Royal Vault which was started to use from King Eroge III. onwards.
There are more than two: Edward IV has one under his chapel as does Henry VI, built by Richard III, and IIRC there may be at least one more. There's a fascinating book that I got through inter-library loan a couple of years ago called "The Royal Tombs of Great Britain: an Illustrated History" by Aidan Dodson (Duckworth, 2004. ISBN# 0715633104) I would love to be able to afford a copy...
 
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Prince Charles has a little more to do these days, but The Queen is still real sound of mind and able to handle her part. She is just letting Prince Charles have a little more responsibility now a days.
 
Prince Charles has a little more to do these days, but The Queen is still real sound of mind and able to handle her part. She is just letting Prince Charles have a little more responsibility now a days.

"Little more"? I think the Prince of Wales is an extremely busy man and holds a lots of reins in his hand. I think he is already functioning as shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen and more and more frail Duke.
 
"Little more"? I think the Prince of Wales is an extremely busy man and holds a lots of reins in his hand. I think he is already functioning as shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen and more and more frail Duke.
The "frail" Duke? The Australian knight? He still has honorable positions he's working and a member of quite a few royal houses. So while Prince Charles and The Queen have a little more to do, they all have a ton to keep up with. No, he's not frail, he's a knight.
 
No, he's not frail, he's a knight.

Although I agree the Duke of Edinburgh looks really good for a man who is almost 94, being a knight is just a honorary position, you know? His Royal Highness is not expected to walk around wearing an armour. :lol:
 
Although I agree the Duke of Edinburgh looks really good for a man who is almost 94, being a knight is just a honorary position, you know? His Royal Highness is not expected to walk around wearing an armour. :lol:

I agree. One thing I know though is that both the Queen and the DoE have schedules that would completely tire me out and Philip has over 30 years on me. I do think its their level of involvement and their stamina to keep up with the day to day things they need to do that keeps them looking not only younger but keeping them in good physical health.
 
I agree. One thing I know though is that both the Queen and the DoE have schedules that would completely tire me out and Philip has over 30 years on me. I do think its their level of involvement and their stamina to keep up with the day to day things they need to do that keeps them looking not only younger but keeping them in good physical health.

I totally agree with you.

The Duke's schedule would tire me, and he's almost 60 years than me!
 
Let us keep things in perspective. It is not that they have to work from 8.00 to 17.00 o'clock in a factory.

The Queen and/or the Duke are transported in the most luxury limousines to the engagement they are attending. They are welcomed by dignitaries and then are given the Very Royal & Important Person-treatment, all and everyone making absolutely sure that Her Majesty and/or His Royal Highness are doing and feeling well. Their stamina is beyond belief but let us keep anything relative, it is incomparable with a "common" ninety-year old, of course.
 
I do agree that wherever they go, they are given the top notch consideration and care and the best of what can be offered but if I remember right, both the Queen and the Duke of Edinburgh also keep to a pretty set in stone daily routine. For example, its a well known fact that the Queen has her morning start with pipers outside of her bedroom window and her breakfast tray, along with her newspapers, is always served at a precise time in the morning. I don't think either one of them could be considered "coddled" and should they develp a hangnail, use that for an excuse to lie abed and watch reruns on TV. They're both people that choose to remain as active as they can be and the thought of having a purely lazy day would never occur to them.

There is definitely nothing "common" about this pair for sure but it is how they choose to handle everyday life that comes at them is what keeps them hale and healthy and hopefully for many more years.
 
Prince Charles has a little more to do these days, but The Queen is still real sound of mind and able to handle her part. She is just letting Prince Charles have a little more responsibility now a days.

Nevertheless, Charles is not a regent yet. The Queen still signs orders in council, accepts diplomatic credentials and performs all her state-related functions on her own, even at her advanced age.

I may be wrong, but I suspect HM has misgivings about the monarchy under Charles and would rather see William succeed her instead. In fact, she has been raising William's profile lately in terms of official and diplomatic engagements. The Queen, however, cannot unilaterally change the law and the law says Charles is the heir apparent.
 
I may be wrong, but I suspect HM has misgivings about the monarchy under Charles and would rather see William succeed her instead.

Yes, I think you're wrong.
 
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I may be wrong, but I suspect HM has misgivings about the monarchy under Charles and would rather see William succeed her instead.

I think the exact opposite. I think HM has the utmost faith that when the time comes, Charles is very much ready to step into his role as monarch. I think she also is taking quite a bit of pride being able to be there and teach her grandson what he'll need to know as he eventually steps into his father's shoes as the heir apparent. She's been doing that with William since he was young.

I think when the time comes, HM will be able to leave this world smiling with the knowledge that the monarchy is going to stand firm and strong as she's checked all the bricks inside out and backwards for any kind of cracks and fortified with mortar all places that needed work done.

How amazing would it be if as George gets older, he'll also benefit from learning at Great Granny's knee?
 
I think the exact opposite. I think HM has the utmost faith that when the time comes, Charles is very much ready to step into his role as monarch. I think she also is taking quite a bit of pride being able to be there and teach her grandson what he'll need to know as he eventually steps into his father's shoes as the heir apparent. She's been doing that with William since he was young.

I think when the time comes, HM will be able to leave this world smiling with the knowledge that the monarchy is going to stand firm and strong as she's checked all the bricks inside out and backwards for any kind of cracks and fortified with mortar all places that needed work done.

How amazing would it be if as George gets older, he'll also benefit from learning at Great Granny's knee?

I fully agree with you.
 
Don't underestimate the power and the influence of the Prince of Wales. His achievements and his nose for business (the Duchy of Cornwall) are impressive. He has proven that he can initiate and lead succesful projects (implementing and booming organic food, the expansion of The Prince's Trust, the development of the Poundbury project, the complete make-over of Highgrove Estate into a sustainable House-with-Park, the immense restoration of Dumfries House as a project to re-integrate jobless youngsters into durable work with skills and craftmanship, etc.)

I have read that the Prince of Wales already gets the notes from the board and management meetings of the Queen's estates, like Balmoral, the Duchy of Lancaster, Windsor Great Park. Her Majesty remains Her Majesty, the only and one Queen. But the interests of the monarchy and the "business of the Firm" are more and more co-steered by the Prince of Wales. That is a token of responsible and forward thinking, ensuring a smooth "hand over". I feel that many posters underestimate the Prince of Wales and think he is only nipping tea with Camilla, the whole day long, awaiting the kingship.
 
Don't underestimate the power and the influence of the Prince of Wales. His achievements and his nose for business (the Duchy of Cornwall) are impressive. He has proven that he can initiate and lead succesful projects (implementing and booming organic food, the expansion of The Prince's Trust, the development of the Poundbury project, the complete make-over of Highgrove Estate into a sustainable House-with-Park, the immense restoration of Dumfries House as a project to re-integrate jobless youngsters into durable work with skills and craftmanship, etc.)

I have read that the Prince of Wales already gets the notes from the board and management meetings of the Queen's estates, like Balmoral, the Duchy of Lancaster, Windsor Great Park. Her Majesty remains Her Majesty, the only and one Queen. But the interests of the monarchy and the "business of the Firm" are more and more co-steered by the Prince of Wales. That is a token of responsible and forward thinking, ensuring a smooth "hand over". I feel that many posters underestimate the Prince of Wales and think he is only nipping tea with Camilla, the whole day long, awaiting the kingship.


I admit he has been a successful businessman and a successful philantropist. I have misgivings though about his performance as an heir apparent specifically, especially compared to some of his continental counterparts. He has repeatedly caused embarassment to the RF and the monarchy both in his personal life (being for example openly adulterous when he was married) and, most significantlly, in his public life (e.g. violating the political neutrality of the Crown several times, trying to influence government policy in areas where he could potentially personally profit, etc.). William, with a much lower profile, has been a much better model prince.
 
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She could not unilaterally remove Charles from the line of succession even if she wanted to.

Of course she couldn't. The Queen is a constitutional monarch, she is not a dictator.

Don't underestimate the power and the influence of the Prince of Wales. His achievements and his nose for business (the Duchy of Cornwall) are impressive. He has proven that he can initiate and lead succesful projects (implementing and booming organic food, the expansion of The Prince's Trust, the development of the Poundbury project, the complete make-over of Highgrove Estate into a sustainable House-with-Park, the immense restoration of Dumfries House as a project to re-integrate jobless youngsters into durable work with skills and craftmanship, etc.)

I have read that the Prince of Wales already gets the notes from the board and management meetings of the Queen's estates, like Balmoral, the Duchy of Lancaster, Windsor Great Park. Her Majesty remains Her Majesty, the only and one Queen. But the interests of the monarchy and the "business of the Firm" are more and more co-steered by the Prince of Wales. That is a token of responsible and forward thinking, ensuring a smooth "hand over".

I agree with you in this, but not what you wrote in your earlier post. He is not the shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen.

I feel that many posters underestimate the Prince of Wales and think he is only nipping tea with Camilla, the whole day long, awaiting the kingship.

I have never underestimated him and I think he will become a good king, when the time comes.
 
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I agree with you in this, but not what you wrote in your earlier post. He is not the shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen.

If anything, those that are involved with the Firm have been making plans and executing them for quite a while now. Although I believe it is now defunct, there was the Way Ahead committee that met twice a year to make and execute plans for the Firm.

Although perhaps way out of date, I found this article that addresses specifically what we've been talking about here regarding Charles and the succession and his perceived "unsuitability" to be King.

If anything, in my opinion its been some of the actions that the Prince of Wales has taken over the years that makes me realize that he will be a king that actively cares what happens to the people, the country and the planet. If you've not had a chance to check out his book "Harmony", I definitely recommend it.

Britain's crisis of succession: Charles and the story behind the royal wedding - The Globe and Mail
 
Prince Charles has a little more to do these days, but The Queen is still real sound of mind and able to handle her part. She is just letting Prince Charles have a little more responsibility now a days.

We don't know this. In terms of 'evidence' there is none. :ermm: It is more reasonable to suspect (going by visual observation) that she is failing than that she is not. Her grandfather's true condition was kept from the British public way past his death, in fact, if I have my facts right. I cannot see the BRF saying anything to dissuade the public that the Queen is anything but capably handling her job. If they didn't, they would not being doing their job imo.

"Little more"? I think the Prince of Wales is an extremely busy man and holds a lots of reins in his hand. I think he is already functioning as shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen and more and more frail Duke.

I agree. :flowers: Anyone who has had to deal with aging parents knows how much one has to step into the breach. How much more for Charles vis-a-vis the monarch, his mother.

Let us keep things in perspective. It is not that they have to work from 8.00 to 17.00 o'clock in a factory.

The Queen and/or the Duke are transported in the most luxury limousines to the engagement they are attending. They are welcomed by dignitaries and then are given the Very Royal & Important Person-treatment, all and everyone making absolutely sure that Her Majesty and/or His Royal Highness are doing and feeling well. Their stamina is beyond belief but let us keep anything relative, it is incomparable with a "common" ninety-year old, of course.

A good summation of how it must go. :flowers:

No, he is not.

Your reply to Duc_et_Pair's comment that he sees Charles as "already functioning as shadow master behind the visibly ageing Queen and more and more frail Duke." Why would you object to this summation? What about it strikes you as either untrue, or not possible? Just wondering. :flowers:

Don't underestimate the power and the influence of the Prince of Wales. His achievements and his nose for business (the Duchy of Cornwall) are impressive. He has proven that he can initiate and lead succesful projects (implementing and booming organic food, the expansion of The Prince's Trust, the development of the Poundbury project, the complete make-over of Highgrove Estate into a sustainable House-with-Park, the immense restoration of Dumfries House as a project to re-integrate jobless youngsters into durable work with skills and craftmanship, etc.)

I have read that the Prince of Wales already gets the notes from the board and management meetings of the Queen's estates, like Balmoral, the Duchy of Lancaster, Windsor Great Park. Her Majesty remains Her Majesty, the only and one Queen. But the interests of the monarchy and the "business of the Firm" are more and more co-steered by the Prince of Wales. That is a token of responsible and forward thinking, ensuring a smooth "hand over". I feel that many posters underestimate the Prince of Wales and think he is only nipping tea with Camilla, the whole day long, awaiting the kingship.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. :flowers:

For some reason, Charles has always been under-estimated. I've never understood it. I think his mother must be exceedingly proud of the son that has turned out to be her heir. Can't imagine anything else.

I think what some people (his own future subjects, in fact) are not aware of is that Charles is held in considerable high and serious regard in various strata of the world politic, both high and low. That I think would startle some British folks given how relentless he is given a negative spin in the British tabloids. It's a real curiosity how much (some) British disrespect their heir to the throne.

I admit he has been a successful businessman and a successful philantropist. I have misgivings though about his performance as an heir apparent specifically, especially compared to some of his continental counterparts. He has repeatedly caused embarassment to the RF and the monarchy both in his personal life (being for example openly adulterous when he was married) and, most significantlly, in his public life (e.g. violating the political neutrality of the Crown several times, trying to influence government policy in areas where he could potentially personally profit, etc.). William, with a much lower profile, has been a much better model prince.

Charles' performance as heir has been one of utter dedication to his role as Britain's heir. I can only guess that his mother the Queen must feel he is exemplary in that regard. His dedication to duty is akin to her own.

Every step of the way he did what was expected/required of him, and got a pretty nasty experience into the bargain. When he finally said on some deeply personal level 'Enough!' and made an important decision for himself, he has been skewered for that. I'm not sure this man could have ever won after he misjudged the character of the woman who became his first wife.

BTW Charles was never 'openly adulterous'.

Also, since Charles is not the monarch he has never violated any political neutrality standards. At least, that's how I understand it. If I'm wrong, please say. :flowers:

As for William's 'lower profile', let's be honest, William is simply not as intellectually adroit as Charles. He does not appear to be 'into' things in an intellectual way. Hence, William is non-threatening to the establishment, or the powers in office at any given time. Charles is definitely a thinker and viewed as a threat, I think, which is why those same people in power make sure he is skewered in the press from time to time. Let's Charles know who's boss perhaps?

Fact is, if Mr Future King does not behave himself, the PTB will let him know who pulls the strings. Sadly, there is an ever willing public eager to see the strings pulled.

But in all this, I am reminded of Charles' Uncle David who had pro-Nazi leanings. As King would he have really been a problem for Britain? Totally off-topic but a consideration. Is Charles comparable to that? Off-topic.
 
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Yes, King Edward VIII, even without Wallis, would have been a problem for the British Government in the late 1930's.

As far as Charles is concerned, he received the Dalai Lama (I believe the two men have met several times) causing offence to the Chinese leadership. He was a noted absentee when the Chinese President was given a State Banquet by the Queen when on a State visit, and I don't think he appeared in his role as POW in greeting the Chinese party at any stage either.

It's this aspect of Prince Charles that worries me the most. When he becomes monarch and has a problem with a foreign government over their human rights policies, is he going to imitate an icicle, or deputise Prince William to act in his place?

Sometimes, when you are a member of a reigning dynasty you have to put your personal feelings aside. What of Prince Philip, for instance, in the days of Russian communism having to meet and greet on occasion members of a regime that murdered two of his grandmother's sisters and their families.
 
Nevertheless, Charles is not a regent yet. The Queen still signs orders in council, accepts diplomatic credentials and performs all her state-related functions on her own, even at her advanced age.

I may be wrong, but I suspect HM has misgivings about the monarchy under Charles and would rather see William succeed her instead. In fact, she has been raising William's profile lately in terms of official and diplomatic engagements. The Queen, however, cannot unilaterally change the law and the law says Charles is the heir apparent.


What basis do you have to believe that the Queen doesn't support Charles as heir?

While she is now giving William more diplomatic engagements, this can be seen as a training for his one day being heir apparent and then monarch and has been going on for years now. Charles has been doing these duties and more for years now. William doing them isn't indicative of the Queen's desire to bypass her son so much as to have her grandson ready to fill his father's shoes when Charles is King.

What's more is that while the Queen might be giving William more diplomatic roles since his marriage she's also given him a lot more freedom and the ability to only be a part-time Royal. This doesn't suggest she wants him to be the heir over Charles.

I admit he has been a successful businessman and a successful philantropist. I have misgivings though about his performance as an heir apparent specifically, especially compared to some of his continental counterparts. He has repeatedly caused embarassment to the RF and the monarchy both in his personal life (being for example openly adulterous when he was married) and, most significantlly, in his public life (e.g. violating the political neutrality of the Crown several times, trying to influence government policy in areas where he could potentially personally profit, etc.). William, with a much lower profile, has been a much better model prince.


You could probably argue that Charles at William's age was more of a model prince than William is now - like his son he was married and had produced an heir and a spare, but both he and his then-wife were far more active in terms of duties than William and Kate are now, as they were full time royals.

Charles has made mistakes in his life, yes, but to say that the mistakes he's made over more than 60 years make him less desirable of a prince than his 30 years younger than him son is absurd. The so-called flaws in Charles' personal life happened nearly 25 years ago and was actually a private affair that was made public and skewed by the press to make him look like the villain. While he has communicated with politicians about his political views he's typically done so privately and not simply for the betterment of himself as you put but rather in support of causes he believes in. Given as he is not the monarch he hasn't betrayed the neutrality of the monarch, furthermore even if he was the monarch the monarch is allowed to discuss issues with the government - and the Queen has weekly meetings with the PM in which she does so.

We don't know this. In terms of 'evidence' there is none. :ermm: It is more reasonable to suspect (going by visual observation) that she is failing than that she is not. Her grandfather's true condition was kept from the British public way past his death, in fact, if I have my facts right. I cannot see the BRF saying anything to dissuade the public that the Queen is anything but capably handling her job. If they didn't, they would not being doing their job imo.


I'm going to both agree and disagree with you here.

While the poor health of both George V and VI were hidden from the public, or at least the extent to which they were ill, their illnesses were more physical and for the most part didn't prevent them from being able to reign. There were only relatively short periods of time when either couldn't fulfill the most basic duties of the monarch, periods during which their heirs were increasingly active and they were out of public view - during these times, the true extent of their illness was hidden, but not necessarily the full fact that they were ill.

Now, as for the Queen and the DoE. I think it would be silly of us to assume that they are of perfect health and completely able. They're of an age where that's extremely unlikely. We do know of some ailments - the Queen has back and knee problems, the DoE has heart problems - and there have been periods where BP has basically implied that one or the other were having serious health problems without really expanding.

That said, there is no actual evidence that she is failing and unable to handle her role, nor that she is not of sound mind. We know there are elements that are too much for her - she no longer does tours because she can't really handle them - but there has been no indication that she can't continue doing engagements or the pomp and circumstance moments in Britain, nor that she is incapable of doing the red boxes. Furthermore, if she was mentally incapable of fulfilling her role and such mental incapacity was more than just a temporary failure then it would not be the job of the BRF to hide it. If the monarch is not of sound mind then a regency is necessary and the BRF is not doing any good by hiding this failing.
 
Sometimes, when you are a member of a reigning dynasty you have to put your personal feelings aside. What of Prince Philip, for instance, in the days of Russian communism having to meet and greet on occasion members of a regime that murdered two of his grandmother's sisters and their families.


That's true today but from what I've heard, through a friend who's mother was one of her ladies-in-waiting, his aunt Queen Louise refused to take part in functions that included Soviet representatives. Not very likely today though even if Queen Silvia and Madeleine refused to honour Chuck Berry and as you say Prince Charles was absent from the Chinese state visit.


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