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  #881  
Old 02-21-2015, 08:48 PM
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If the Queen was even remotely thinking of abdicating, William would be a full time royal.

The Queen could live another 30 years.

She could outlive Charles and William.
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  #882  
Old 02-21-2015, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post


If Elizabeth II felt she could abdicate, would she consult the matter with her four children?
Or would she speak with Charles only? After all, Charles is her heir.
Would Elizabeth need to get the opinion of the Prime Minister?
Or is this a matter that she and only she, as Queen Elizabeth II, decides?
She would have to consult not only the PM of GB but also of the other realms as legislation would be needed in all of those realms - just as has been needed for the Succession to the Crown Act.

She could make it extra easy however - simply convert to Roman Catholicism and it would be automatic.
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  #883  
Old 02-21-2015, 09:04 PM
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I have long thought that HM hanging in till the end was actually doing the Monarchy a disservice, but the last several posts here take the concept further and give some good reasons why it would be of very real benefit to Charles and her country for her to abdicate.

In the circumstances I doubt that the Realms would object to HM abdicating if it is her wish. Surely the legislation could be put through very quickly.

It won't happen, of course.
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  #884  
Old 02-21-2015, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Queen Camilla View Post
If the Queen was even remotely thinking of abdicating, William would be a full time royal.

The Queen could live another 30 years.

She could outlive Charles and William.

30 years ! Possible but highly unlikely


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  #885  
Old 02-21-2015, 09:28 PM
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Will the Queen abdicate? No she will not, as I and others have said several times before.

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In his recent memoir, former foreign minister Bob Carr provided insight into why. He related a conversation between the Queen and Australia’s outgoing high commissioner to London, the former South Australian premier Mike Rann, that touched on the abdication of Queen Beatrix of The Netherlands. “It’s not something we do here,’’ Elizabeth said.
Our view

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His Royal Highness has always preferred not to comment on matters which relate to a future whose date is unknown, and would arise only after the death of his mother.
Should the Queen abdicate? No she should not, as I and others have said several times before.

I repeat again.

Besides The Queen's view on the coronation oath and her vow that her whole life would be devoted to service, there is a very easy reason why The Queen wouldn't abdicate. The Queen is head of state of 16 countries and head of the Commonwealth, if she decided to abdicate each country would have to pass a bill approving the abdication as the demise of the crown legislation only accounts for a monarch's death not abdication. When Edward VIII abdicated, the UK could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy, and not forget the Commonwealth.

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Originally Posted by Lady Nimue View Post
I think the continental royals have set a great precedent.
I don't agree.

The Netherlands.
Abdication is a tradition there, it has taken place since 1948.

Spain.
Juan Carlos has repeatedly said that he would not abdicate, but because of his stupidity, he had no choice.

Belgium.
Albert was frail and did it for health reasons, but look how he behaves towards his son now.

And you can't compare these monarchies with the British monarchy.

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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
I think that for the long-term survival of the monarchy she should abdicate so that she is there to support Charles and Camilla. The public would be more likely to accept Charles and Camilla if she is there at the coronation etc
The longer she reigns the better it is for Charles, in my opinion.

This was briliant written by EIIR in 2012.

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Originally Posted by EIIR View Post
When it comes to Charles acceding the throne I feel people miss the point. There is likely to be a huge outpouring of national grief when The Queen passes away. It's important not to underestimate how powerful that will be. Hundreds of thousands of people queued for days in order to file past the Queen Mother's coffin. The level of mourning for the Queen is likely to be a great deal deeper - the Queen is not only a much loved head of state, she's an international icon.

That national grief will, naturally, lead to a great deal of sympathy flowing to the RF generally, and Charles as the next in line.

There will also be a certain fascination in having a new monarch - the vast majority of Britons have only ever known one monarch. The process of new stamps, notes, coins, not to mention a coronation to look forward to. There's also the fact that Charles' reign is likely to be relatively short and William and Catherine will be closer to the throne while also having their own children who will, no doubt, fascinate us all in much the same way their parents have.

This is all a rather long winded way of saying I really don't believe that there will be any significant change to the British monarchy when Charles takes over. I think Charles will be a surprisingly popular King; he'll be at the 'sweet old man' age rather then in middle aged no mans land. It's an unfortunate fact of life nowadays; we see the young as interesting and cool, and the elderly as sweet and wise. It's the in between stage where people just aren't that interested.
And why on earth should she abdicate at the age of almost 90. Had she wanted to abdicate, she would have done it long ago.

It is being busy that keeps The Queen in good health.

If she becomes too frail to carry out her constitutional duties, a regency will be created.
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  #886  
Old 02-21-2015, 10:18 PM
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Abdicate - Never.
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  #887  
Old 02-22-2015, 12:11 AM
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Never say never.

I don't favor regencies, except temporary ones. I don't agree with doing the full job and getting none of the credit for it.
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  #888  
Old 02-22-2015, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
She DID take the throne for life, but life is not easy for the very old. Times change, people change. I don't believe she will abdicate, but I am in the never say never camp. Can she really be 101, like her mother, and continue on with all of the duties of a monarch?
Infirmity does not mean or require abdication! That is what her heir, Prince Charles is there for, to act as Prince Regent if she is incapacitated in any way, for as long as it takes.

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A prince regent, or prince-regent, is a prince who rules a monarchy as regent instead of a monarch, e.g., as a result of the Sovereign's incapacity (minority or illness) or absence (remoteness, such as exile or long voyage, or simply no incumbent).
Who knew Wiki could be so precise.

They are British, and that's the way they do things, and so on throughout the Commonwealth.
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  #889  
Old 02-22-2015, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Never say never.

I don't favor regencies, except temporary ones. I don't agree with doing the full job and getting none of the credit for it.
I agree with what you are suggesting here. Charles is carrying a lot now and will more so as time goes on, one would guess. I'm sure he's personally fine with it because anything else means his mother has passed, or is too ill to continue. I don't know, of course, just how I would see it.

Charles does seem to have an unusual karma, always in the shadows, always taking the back seat, never out front and honored without distraction. Yet, I have a hope for him that he is really okay with it all. It is what it is.

BTW I know this is off-topic, but just quickly: how is the old Belgian king treating the new Belgian king?
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  #890  
Old 02-22-2015, 01:32 AM
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While I can see it happening one day I see no reason for it to happen now.
If I'm reading the posts here right there seems to be a tread that it's Charles turn or it would be better for Charles, he would have better chance to be popular or "make his mark"
If she ever did abdicate it should be because she's too old to do the job slowing down is not a reason for me.


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  #891  
Old 02-22-2015, 02:17 AM
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The longer she holds on the more documentaries and stories about Charles that are attacking him will come out. That is why I think she should stand down - to help Charles.


The longer she lasts now the more the pressure will be on Charles to stand aside as he will be so old when he becomes King. He is already past retirement age and the population don't have the respect for him that they have for either his mother or son but if he was King while William still has very young children then there is a greater chance Charles will be accepted.


She will never do it, of course, but I am now of the opinion that she is harming the institution in the long run by holding on and not handing over to Charles. She will never see it that way because she was raised to believe that she had to do the job for life.


Her vow, in 1947, was to 'serve' and to me the best way for her to 'serve' could now be by standing down rather than holding on forever.


As I said, she will never do it.


But...


Is that actually the best thing for the future of the monarchy - with the controversy around Charles and Andrew and the questions about the work ethic of William and Kate?
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  #892  
Old 02-22-2015, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The longer she holds on the more documentaries and stories about Charles that are attacking him will come out. That is why I think she should stand down - to help Charles.

I can't help but feel this is a very optimistic view of how things would turn out.

If the Queen abdicated it could be seen as support for Charles, yes. Or it could inflame the idea that the British monarch can chose to abdicate and result in demand for Charles to abdicate in favour of his more popular son.

If the succession of QEII to Charles passed without issue, then she could be seen as supporting her son in his reign or taking a well deserved retirement, or she could also be interpreted as not supporting Charles, as having been forced out, or as undercutting his power. Look at the situation in Belgium, where the old King isn't seen as supporting the new King. Even in Spain, the new King is still seen as dealing with the issues of the previous regime, and his family's less than ideal choices. QEII abdicating isn't going to solve the problems of the BRF, it's just going to put them onto Charles' shoulders and open a new can of worms.

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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Never say never.



I don't favor regencies, except temporary ones. I don't agree with doing the full job and getting none of the credit for it.

All regencies are temporary.

Furthermore, the regents do get credit for it. George IV is probably better known for what he did as Prince Regent than as King. In the time that he was regent he got all the credit, he just didn't get the big title. Other regents in the past have held a lot of power because of their being regent, at times with rather disastrous results. While not all regents in British history are well known outside of history-geek circles (not all British monarchs are well known outside of history-feel circles), they aren't lacking in the credit. Anyone who studies the reign of Edward VI is going to know that he had a succession of regents. Likewise, those who study Richard II will know his uncle John of Gaunt was his regent, and those who study the reign of Edward III will know that it started when his father was overthrown by his mother and her lover, Roger Mortimer, who was set up effectively as his regent only to be executed by Edward when Edward ceased power.

Regents get their credit. They just don't get the title tight away, but the title isn't the only aspect of things (and regents do get a title as well - Regent).
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  #893  
Old 02-22-2015, 03:34 AM
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If the Queen had abdicated it would have created major problems for Charles and the monarchy. It would have led to a fierce debate about the monarchy's future.

It is better that Charles takes over when the Queen dies. It will go quietly without much debate, because people / media will be very occupied by the Queen's death. That will be a remarkable and very sad event.
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  #894  
Old 02-22-2015, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ish View Post
Look at the situation in Belgium, where the old King isn't seen as supporting the new King.
How? What's going on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
If the Queen had abdicated it would have created major problems for Charles and the monarchy. It would have led to a fierce debate about the monarchy's future.

It is better that Charles takes over when the Queen dies. It will go quietly without much debate, because people / media will be very occupied by the Queen's death. That will be a remarkable and very sad event.
I can see this point. The very gravity of the situation would carry Charles forward. Well, it's a view, and we really can't know. It does make sense that letting things just proceed is for the best. I can see the value in both ways of looking at it.
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  #895  
Old 02-22-2015, 05:01 AM
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Yesterday, in the weekly program Blauw Bloed (Blue Blood) on Dutch TV, Queen Margrethe was respectfully asked about the abdications of Queen Beatrix, King Albert and King Juan Carlos. Did these events made Her Majesty reconsider her opinion?

Queen Margrethe more or less avoided this question by saying that the abdication of Queen Beatrix "was expected" seeing the other abdications in the Dutch Royal House. She reminded how the people of Denmark rallied around her, the new Queen, after the death of her father. She believed that transfer by death was a powerful symbol. I can imagine Queen Elizabeth II has the same feeling.

I don't know. The much respected Queen Beatrix got a grandiose farewell. She could see with her own eyes how her son assumed the kingship in a glittering ceremony and how well they are doing it now. She seems to enjoy her new phase in life as Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands, living in two splendidly restored mansions and still be received with all possible égards wherever she comes.

It is not that abdication is "bad" but apparently this idea simply has a total different weight in the United Kingdom or in Denmark. The fact that even the Pope or the King of Spain abdicates, and how smooth this all went, only is a new step in the evolution of abdications as something honourful and nothing to be ashamed of. Queen Elizabeth II will not consider abdication. She would have done it years ago, now she has reached such an age that she will die in the harness, so to speak. But for the generations of Charles, William and George: I expect they will stand more relaxed to the possibility of an abdication. When George is an adult, in the meantime King Willem-Alexander and King Philippe will have abdicated in favour of Princess Catharina-Amalia resp. Princess Elisabeth...
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  #896  
Old 02-22-2015, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by GracieGiraffe View Post
Never say never.

I don't favor regencies, except temporary ones. I don't agree with doing the full job and getting none of the credit for it.
I've always been of the opinion that QEII would abdicate when hell froze over. It is an actual fact that Hell, Michigan has frozen over as this deep freeze sweeps the US.

I do see a way out though. Elizabeth and Philip have been married for a very long time. Should Philip pass on, I don't think there would be one soul on this globe that would resent the Queen going into mourning and having Charles step in for her. It could be a time of passing on the majority of what she does to Charles and Camilla while still meeting with her requirements (meetings with the PM, red boxes etc) in seclusion.

I don't think either the Queen or Charles actively seek the credit and the glory and whatnot and sincerely believe they're of service to the Crown and the nation. QEII may actually choose not to go into mourning and carry on as that is her job and I do agree it is in keeping busy that keep both her and Philip so hale and hearty even with advancing age.
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  #897  
Old 02-22-2015, 05:37 AM
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[...]

The Queen could live another 30 years.

[...]
I see, she is heading for the Guiness World Record. not even for the eldest female person, but the eldest human being ever on this world....

Okay, and then the United Kingdom have a 119 or 120 years old geriatric patient as Queen with a wobbling crown on her frail head and a grandson going to his Sixties. Still no abdication?
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  #898  
Old 02-22-2015, 07:46 AM
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I see, she is heading for the Guiness World Record. not even for the eldest female person, but the eldest human being ever on this world....

Okay, and then the United Kingdom have a 119 or 120 years old geriatric patient as Queen with a wobbling crown on her frail head and a grandson going to his Sixties. Still no abdication?
Nope; regency possibly, but abdication: no
The trauma of the abdication of her uncle will not subside in her lifetime.

And yes, obviously that is just my opinion and nothing more, but HM has stated time and time again that she will not abdicate so any of you speculating that she will (for whatever reason) only state your own opinion too
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  #899  
Old 02-22-2015, 09:08 AM
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Nope; regency possibly, but abdication: no
The trauma of the abdication of her uncle will not subside in her lifetime.

And yes, obviously that is just my opinion and nothing more, but HM has stated time and time again that she will not abdicate so any of you speculating that she will (for whatever reason) only state your own opinion too
Did she have a trauma from the abdication of her uncle? Her father perhaps, but not her, I think. I don't think that would be a reason for her not to do so. Besides, there would not be a recreating of such a trauma if she did abdicate. Her son is expected to succeed her and is more than ready for the job.
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Old 02-22-2015, 09:16 AM
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If Queen Elizabeth II has ever considered abdication, then she would already have done that indeed. So we may expect Her Majesty to stay on the throne until she departs this world. For the rest I agree: "what trauma?"

The Pope abdicated, the King of Spain abdicated, the King of the Belgians abdicated, the Queen of the Netherlands abdicated, we may expect an abdication of Grand Duke Henri when he thinks time is right. None of these countries suffered any trauma and no any monarchy suffered a backlash. On the contrary, I would say: the monarchies in Belgium and Spain experienced a boost. The monarchy in the Netherlands remained on the same high rate of approval it already had under Queen Beatrix.
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