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  #821  
Old 07-10-2014, 06:51 PM
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I don't think she should abdicate but if gets to the point that she can't carry out her official engagements due to health reasons, then I think she should be allowed to rest and have Charles & Camilla and the Cambridge's take on more. She's nearing 90, her health will likely become an issue more and more.

I would like to see her and the Duchesses of Cornwall and Cambridge officially partner up more though.
Both the Queen and Prince Philip are scaling back their workload but, I believe it is very difficult for both of them to do. They have worked like this every day of their adult lives and no matter how much they want to change and enjoy a least a semi retirement, it really is easier said than done. Their work ethic is who they are.

Nevertheless, it is happening and we are starting to see more down time and both Charles and Camilla are stepping up their workload. As to the Cambridges, they seem to be at some sort of impasse, neither fish nor fowl so to speak.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:10 PM
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Charles is going to be a good King, and that day will come. But Elizabeth II is Queen and will always be.
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  #823  
Old 07-10-2014, 08:23 PM
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Times do change and people live a whole lot longer. I, personally, have no idea whether this will affect the queen's thinking. Her son will inherit when he is, probably, in his late 70's. It is how they feel. Three Western Monarchies just changed, but the heirs are youthful. Charles has passed that point.
I agree with you - as someone once said, "old age is not for wimps." No matter what her intentions, she might not be able to keep up these duties in a few years' time.

The point is nobody here knows what is going on the Queen's head and what the would or would not consider - and what she might not have considered at 75, she might be seriously considering at 88.
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  #824  
Old 07-10-2014, 08:26 PM
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Both the Queen and Prince Philip are scaling back their workload but, I believe it is very difficult for both of them to do. They have worked like this every day of their adult lives and no matter how much they want to change and enjoy a least a semi retirement, it really is easier said than done. Their work ethic is who they are.

Nevertheless, it is happening and we are starting to see more down time and both Charles and Camilla are stepping up their workload. As to the Cambridges, they seem to be at some sort of impasse, neither fish nor fowl so to speak.
Actually the Queen is not scaling back. Just look at the Annual Engagements thread. She may not go long haul anymore but that doesnt actually mean she is doing less. Last month she carried out more engagements than anyone (that's from memory).

The bulk of her work is not travelling anyway - its meetings, councils, investitures etc in BP and Windsor.

I once thought that perhaps she should give it up, but HMQ, Charles and William dont want that to happen. So it won't.
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  #825  
Old 07-10-2014, 09:29 PM
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Besides The Queen's view on the coronation oath and her vow that her whole life would be devoted to service, there is a very easy reason why The Queen wouldn't abdicate. The Queen is head of state of 16 countries and head of the Commonwealth, if she decided to abdicate each country would have to pass a bill approving the abdication as the demise of the crown legislation only accounts for a monarch's death not abdication. When Edward VIII abdicated, the UK could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy, and not forget the Commonwealth.

This post was originally written by timtonruben359, I just wrote it a bit differently.
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  #826  
Old 07-10-2014, 09:37 PM
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Besides The Queen's view on the coronation oath and her vow that her whole life would be devoted to service, there is a very easy reason why The Queen wouldn't abdicate. The Queen is head of state of 16 countries and head of the Commonwealth, if she decided to abdicate each country would have to pass a bill approving the abdication as the demise of the crown legislation only accounts for a monarch's death not abdication. When Edward VIII abdicated, the UK could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy, and not forget the Commonwealth.

This post was originally written by timtonruben359, I just wrote it a bit differently.
True enough. But as I said, times do change and circumstances do change. I do not see her abdicating, on a personal level. I think she believes this is her duty and, by the way times have changed, older people are quite capable of doing much more than years ago. No one here has questioned Charles' ability.
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  #827  
Old 07-10-2014, 10:52 PM
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Actually the Queen is not scaling back. Just look at the Annual Engagements thread. She may not go long haul anymore but that doesn't actually mean she is doing less. Last month she carried out more engagements than anyone (that's from memory).

The bulk of her work is not travelling anyway - its meetings, councils, investitures etc in BP and Windsor.

I once thought that perhaps she should give it up, but HMQ, Charles and William dont want that to happen. So it won't.
Hmm, perhaps I should have said that she and Philip announced their intention to slow down and a statement was made to the effect that they had "given up" travelling outside the UK. The D Day celebrations were announced as being her last overseas State Visit.

However, that trip was definitely not for the fainthearted! IIRC she did one engagement after another after another and totally intimidated many of the Heads of State present, whether royal or elected.

As I said, slowing down is hard and if you are HRH Queen Elizabeth well, slowing down is relative!
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  #828  
Old 07-11-2014, 12:24 AM
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The only thing I can find is that the French visit 'might be' her last overseas state visit - not that it definitely would be.

State Visits are very much part of what a Head of State is expected to do and the UK can't expect foreign countries to accept a lesser person than the Head of State just because she is old.

The rumours are that she won't be going overseas again - but that is more not going to the Americas or Asia or the Antipodes - while Europe is still possible as it is so easy to get to for people from the UK.

Sure she does a lot of engagements on her busy days but she is approaching August and September when it is possible that she won't do more than 10 across both months and most of that will be 'receiving' someone for an hour or so in her home. She does much the same in December and January.

IF she can't do all her duties - and that includes overseas tours - then she should step down but as long as she can do all her duties then she should continue.

Her promise was 'to serve' that nation - maybe the best way for her to serve, at some point in the future, would be to abdicate.
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  #829  
Old 07-11-2014, 12:52 AM
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We all know The Queen is very much dedicated to her job and she do it with a great deal of dignity and grace. She has kept true to her oath and people respect her for it. The effects of age and health could care less about any oaths though. Long may she reign but we all have to prepare to accept the realities of her age and the limitations that it will cause.
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  #830  
Old 07-11-2014, 01:13 AM
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Hmm, perhaps I should have said that she and Philip announced their intention to slow down and a statement was made to the effect that they had "given up" travelling outside the UK. The D Day celebrations were announced as being her last overseas State Visit.

However, that trip was definitely not for the fainthearted! IIRC she did one engagement after another after another and totally intimidated many of the Heads of State present, whether royal or elected.

As I said, slowing down is hard and if you are HRH Queen Elizabeth well, slowing down is relative!
Has there been a public statement about it? I can not find anything about it.
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  #831  
Old 07-11-2014, 01:50 AM
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The only thing I can find is that the French visit 'might be' her last overseas state visit - not that it definitely would be.

State Visits are very much part of what a Head of State is expected to do and the UK can't expect foreign countries to accept a lesser person than the Head of State just because she is old.

The rumours are that she won't be going overseas again - but that is more not going to the Americas or Asia or the Antipodes - while Europe is still possible as it is so easy to get to for people from the UK.

Sure she does a lot of engagements on her busy days but she is approaching August and September when it is possible that she won't do more than 10 across both months and most of that will be 'receiving' someone for an hour or so in her home. She does much the same in December and January.

IF she can't do all her duties - and that includes overseas tours - then she should step down but as long as she can do all her duties then she should continue.

Her promise was 'to serve' that nation - maybe the best way for her to serve, at some point in the future, would be to abdicate.
She neither will or can abdicate, and no one will expect that The Queen will continue to travel on state visits at the age of nearly 90. She has served the nation for the most of her life, and continues to do so.
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  #832  
Old 07-11-2014, 02:52 AM
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It is solely up to Her Majesty to consider an abdication or not. Posters who claim "She will never step down" are triggering me because they claim to know something no one knows. It is the same as the one poster claiming that corgi Bella is her favourite and the other claims that it is for sure corgi Max. The morale of the story: no one knows.

Also posters claiming that an abdication is impossible: du moment Her Majesty informs the Prime Minister about her intentions, the Governments of all her Realms will provide everything to fulfill Her Majesty's wish. It is most unlikely that Antigua and Barbuda, Tuvalu or New Zealand will oppose the Queen's possible intention.

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  #833  
Old 07-11-2014, 03:17 AM
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It is solely up to Her Majesty to consider an abdication or not. Posters who claim "She will never step down" are triggering me because they claim to know something no one knows. It is the same as the one poster claiming that corgi Bella is her favourite and the other claims that it is for sure corgi Max. The morale of the story: no one knows.

Also posters claiming that an abdication is impossible: du moment Her Majesty informs the Prime Minister about her intentions, the Governments of all her Realms will provide everything to fulfill Her Majesty's wish. It is most unlikely that Antigua and Barbuda, Tuvalu or New Zealand will oppose the Queen's possible intention.

Exactly. IMO she does might consider to step down because of a combination of various reasons: very old age/very ill health, death of DoE, giving Charles the opportunity to a) become King before he himself before experiencing the same re age/health/partner gone and b) pushing for modernisation of the institution, to give William the opportunity to carve out a niche for himself as Prince of Wales before he has to take over from Charles, who will have in comparison a very short reign. Charles has the standing to be King and push through whatever he finds necessary while William is (naturally) lacking a lot of gravitas and experience, what could be a problem when things are hanging in limbo for many years (Queen unable to do duties, Charles as regent, William possibly not yet a full time royal).
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  #834  
Old 07-11-2014, 04:14 AM
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If she becomes too frail to carry out her constitutional duties, a regency will be created.
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  #835  
Old 07-11-2014, 06:53 AM
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If there was a regency, William would have to become a full time royal and leave whatever new job his starting this fall and Kate would be full time too.

People say the William lacks gravitas. But we have seen him in serious royal situation like a both trips to Christchurch and at Normandy and he was excellent. If Charles lives 20 more years, William will be in his early 50s.


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  #836  
Old 07-11-2014, 08:36 AM
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If there was a regency, William would have to become a full time royal and leave whatever new job his starting this fall and Kate would be full time too.

People say the William lacks gravitas. But we have seen him in serious royal situation like a both trips to Christchurch and at Normandy and he was excellent. If Charles lives 20 more years, William will be in his early 50s.


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I think the Cambridge's will switch over the full-time royal duties way before something like that goes down.
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  #837  
Old 07-11-2014, 11:01 PM
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We all know The Queen is very much dedicated to her job and she do it with a great deal of dignity and grace. She has kept true to her oath and people respect her for it. The effects of age and health could care less about any oaths though. Long may she reign but we all have to prepare to accept the realities of her age and the limitations that it will cause.
Yes, exactly.

I also agree with the poster who said we don't know what goes on in her head, or what aches and pains she has, and how her opinion will evolve as she ages. At times I think that a better name for this thread is would the public consider abdication or retirement for the Queen (which is a resounding "no" from what I can see).
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  #838  
Old 07-12-2014, 04:25 PM
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It is solely up to Her Majesty to consider an abdication or not. Posters who claim "She will never step down" are triggering me because they claim to know something no one knows. It is the same as the one poster claiming that corgi Bella is her favourite and the other claims that it is for sure corgi Max. The morale of the story: no one knows.

Also posters claiming that an abdication is impossible: du moment Her Majesty informs the Prime Minister about her intentions, the Governments of all her Realms will provide everything to fulfill Her Majesty's wish. It is most unlikely that Antigua and Barbuda, Tuvalu or New Zealand will oppose the Queen's possible intention.

I'm going to both agree and disagree with you (both here and in what you've said elsewhere on this thread).

I agree that it is entirely possible for HM to abdicate and if she so wished to her governments would make it happen. I don't think it would be as easy as you seem to think, as at least some of the realms if not all of them will have to pass their own legislature to allow for an abdication. It wouldn't be nearly as quick and (relatively) easy as the abdications we've seen in the Netherlands, Spain, Belgium, or the Vatican. While the Queen is well within her rights to abdicate because of her age, and if she so wishes then we should respect that, but there is already a system in place for if and when the monarch is unable to perform his or her duties, the Regency Act, which is far easier to put in place than an abdication - it only applies in one realm and requires no additional legislation.

I disagree with the idea that because abdications happened in these countries the Queen should happen. You're not considering the reasons behind these abdications, or the potential consequences of an abdication of the Queen.
  1. In the Netherlands there is a long history of monarchs abdicating. Beatrix choosing to abdicate has no potential backlash because it's something that is expected to occur there.
  2. In Belgium Albert has been involved in an ongoing paternity scandal. At the time of his abdication his (alleged) illegitimate daughter was pressing a court case against Albert's legitimate children to prove her paternity. The case was publicly dividing the family, and seriously threatened the popularity of the king. In abdicating he may have opened himself up to attack, but he may have also helped secure the monarchy (although, subsequently, his actions have done much to further weaken popular opinion of him, and made it seem like he doesn't respect the new king).
  3. In the Catholic Church, there is an ongoing and extremely serious issue of sex abuse within the church. Benedict was repeatedly accused of being involved in the cover up of the scandal, and two separate lawsuits were brought against him and others in the church for covering it up. Furthermore, Benedict took a stance on issues (birth control, HIV/AIDS, homosexuality, same-sex marriage, etc) that is extremely traditional and hasn't helped the church in retaining membership. While the official reason for his abdication may have been his health - the first pope in 700 years to feel his health prevented him from fulfilling his duties - in reality the reasoning was probably the scandal and the fact that he (or the church) realized that they couldn't go forward into the 21st century under Benedict's teachings. It's kind of important to note that Francis is taking a very different approach to these issues than his predecessor took.
  4. Juan Carlos may have officially abdicated for health reasons and because he doesn't want his son to grow old waiting like Charles - which is a load of BS, as Charles may be an old heir, but he's definitely not simply waiting around for the job - but once again, it's naive to think that that's the actual reason. While JC may have once been extremely popular, in recent years the Spanish monarchy has dropped in popularity by a lot, as has JC. He's been involved in several scandals, from the accusations of cheating, to his hunting, to his overspending (and all of that came from just one trip). His daughter and son-in-law are also involved in a very public legal case, where it looks like they're most likely not innocent. While support for the monarchy is at, or below, 50%, support for Felipe is much higher - and JC, a man who had to fight for his position, unlike many other modern royals, understands all too well the importance of remaining popular amongst the people. His abdication may be for "health" reasons on paper, but it's really in order to attempt to save the Spanish monarchy overall.
Three of the four monarchs who abdicated in the last couple years may have claimed health reasons, but they clearly did so because their role as monarch was jeopardizing their monarchies. The only one who can legitimately be seen as abdicating because of her age is Beatrix, and she belongs to a royal family were abdications are seen as the norm - it's been 124 years since the last time a Dutch monarch died in office.


QEII is not in a position remotely similar to that of her abdicating counterparts. Unlike Beatrix, she is not in a family that has a tradition of abdicating - quite the opposite, in fact. Abdications in Britain are things of scandal. Unlike Albert, Benedict, and JC her actions have not caused or associated her with any huge scandals. She is not a much disliked monarch, there are no massive calls for her to abdicate in favour of her son. There is no evidence that if she continues to remain Queen the monarchy will be destablized and in danger of being removed. In fact, it's rather the opposite in within the Commonwealth. In several of the realms, it is expected that when the Queen dies republican referendums will occur - and an abdication will more than likely aid such debate. The Queen remains one of the most popular members of the British royal family, which sadly cannot be said for her son and his wife. There is still call from people for the throne to skip over Charles in favour of William - despite the fact that Charles is one of the most active members of the royal family, while William remains at best a part time royal who has yet to really prove himself (not meant as a criticism of William). If the Queen were to abdicate, it could very well spark calls for Charles to abdicate.

The abdication of Beatrix was done knowing that it would have no negative affect on the Dutch monarchy. The abdications of Albert, Benedict, and JC were done with the expectation that things for the monarchy/church would be better under new a new monarch. The same cannot be said for QEII. Her abdication will not better the realm, nor will it have no negative affect on it - which is not meant as a criticism of Charles, as I think he'll be a good king when the time comes, but rather a critic of how people will react to an abdication.

If the time comes where the Queen feels she is no longer able to perform her role and somehow the requirements of the Regency Act aren't met (which is a stretch, as they're rather broad) or she doesn't wish to have a Regency and would rather abdicate, then I think we should respect her decision and support her in it. However, I honestly don't think that her abdicating will be what is best, as there are too many potential negative consequences. The Queen abdicating will only serve to destabilize the role of the monarch and monarchy.

Personally, from all that I've read about the Queen (which is a fair bit), I don't think she would ever abdicate unless doing so would be to the benefit of the monarchy. She grew up in a family that taught that abdication was selfish and to go against the plan that God had set out for you. She saw her Uncle David essentially being cast out from the family and exiled from his home for his decision to abdicate. The three most influential people in her childhood - her parents and her paternal grandmother - all had very strong feelings about abdication. As such, I don't think the Queen sees her role as being a job one can simply retire from, or the position as monarch (particularly a crowned and anointed one, which David was not) as being something you can just give up. If she thought her abdicating was necessary for the good of her realms, she would do it, but it isn't, so I don't think she will.

Instead, I think if the time comes where her health prevents her from being able to fulfill her duties, a regency will be established. Currently, the Regency Act allows for a regency to be established if "the Sovereign is by reason of infirmity of mind or body incapable for the time being of performing the royal functions". If the Queen's health becomes such that she can't perform her duties, she is of infirmity of body and can pass on her duties without having to abdicate and create any ensuing chaos.
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  #839  
Old 07-13-2014, 05:25 PM
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Hmm, perhaps I should have said that she and Philip announced their intention to slow down and a statement was made to the effect that they had "given up" travelling outside the UK. The D Day celebrations were announced as being her last overseas State Visit.
really? I missed that. I had a quick look and didnt see the announcement. Do you have a link?
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:09 PM
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In After Diana, Christopher Anderson wrote:

Elizabeth II's cousin Margaret Rhodes said: "I am sure she (Elizabeth) will never abdicate."
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