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  #741  
Old 06-05-2014, 09:17 AM
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The royal 'I quit!': Retirements of monarchs (and a pope) - CNN.com
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Could a British royal be next?
The news of King Juan Carlos' abdication didn't shock British author and historian Kate Williams.
"We've seen this in Belgium and the Netherlands," she said. "I think it's often thought that rule should go to someone who is young and vibrant and fun. But you will never see it in the United Kingdom. Never."
Queen Elizabeth II has said that she believes the job of ruling Britain was given to her by God, and only God can take it away, Williams said.
The queen staying in her job is critical to a cohesive sense of culture in Britain, she said.

But it's happened before in the U.K.
There's no way Queen Elizabeth doesn't consider the shock waves sent through British society when King Edward VIII abdicated in 1936.
That "haunts" the palace still, Fitzwilliams said.
King Edward caused a huge stir when he declared that he wanted to marry American divorcee Wallis Simpson, an act that broke the rules of the Church of England. He gave up the throne and became the Duke of Windsor.
Together, the couple toured Germany. It was reported that the former king had Nazi sympathies. He lived out the rest of his life in France.
The episode is considered, Fitzwilliams said, a shame on the legacy of the British monarchy.
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  #742  
Old 06-05-2014, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
As remarked, had Queen Juliana not abdicated in 1980, her daughter Princess Beatrix would have become Queen in 2004, as a widowed lady, aged 67 which is above the general age of retirement. Then she had to start her Reign. Had Grand Duke Jean not abdicated in 2000, the present Grand Duke still would be the Heir, also already 60 years old and waiting to start his Reign. Had King Albert II not abdicated in 2013, then today his Heir would have been 54 years old and still waiting to start his Reign.

In all these monarchies not only the Sovereigns have reached recordbreaking ages, at the same time there were never so old Heirs, even Prince Willem-Alexander, only 46 last year, was the oldest Heir ever to succeed the throne in themore than 600 years of Orange-Nassau rule.

Now in the UK we face a Heir who is already past the general age of retirement and still waiting. So apart from the very own individual choice, I think that the three beforementioned Sovereigns also took into consideration what was the best option for the dynasty and the country. I think Don Juan Carlos, for a long time suffering a decline in his health and abilities, made the same consideration. As did Pope Benedict XVI. "Not looking to my very own interest, what is the best option for the dynasty and for the country?" and apparently they thought an abdication was the best.

Queen Elizabeth II has a total different opinion. We are lucky that we can tell our children and grandchildren that we have witnessed one of the longest Reigns ever. I only want to get rid from the hidden undertone that an abdication would be something dishonourful.

Interesting Post. You bring up a Good Point, Peoples are living longer now then 200 Years or even 100 Years ago and that Include Monarchs, Heirs,etc. Queen Victoria lived to ripe old age of 81 and that was considered unusual even for her times (1901) as she had outlived the life expectancy for that times. Same with King George III living to 81 which was rare at that times as well However now 82 is the average life expectancy (at least in the U.K for women's. For mens it 79) so it not rare anymore and peoples are living beyond that. How many monarchs in 1914 (the ones who didn't loose their thrones) lived beyond 70 or eve 80? There were some but not many.

Queen Wilhelmina abdicated at age 68 and lived another 13 years. If she had reined until death she would have been 82. Queen Juliana would have been 53. As you said if se had reigned until 2004 Beatrix would have been 66
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  #743  
Old 06-05-2014, 01:00 PM
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Besides the Queen's view on the coronation oath and her vow that her whole life would be devoted to service, there is a very easy reason why the Queen wouldn't abdicate. The Queen is head of state of over a dozen country, if she decided to abdicate each country would have to pass a bill approving the abdication as the demise of the crown legislation only accounts for a monarch's death not abdication. When Edward VIII abdicated, Britain could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy.
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  #744  
Old 06-05-2014, 05:55 PM
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^ and the commonwealth.
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  #745  
Old 06-05-2014, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Al_bina View Post
That "haunts" the palace still, Fitzwilliams said.
King Edward caused a huge stir when he declared that he wanted to marry American divorcee Wallis Simpson, an act that broke the rules of the Church of England.
The present future King, himself a divorcee, married another divorcee and still is very much in line if succession. This added to the divorces of the Duke of York, the Princess Royal, the Princess Margaret, etc. This added to the swift and easy change of the succession into a gender neutral one, all this shows that the British monarchy is not as paralysed, immobile and stuck in traditions as many tend to believe. When Her Majesty informs Mr Cameron she intends to lay down her royal prerogatives, the Government will make this possible.
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  #746  
Old 06-05-2014, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The present future King, himself a divorcee, married another divorcee and still is very much in line if succession. This added to the divorces of the Duke of York, the Princess Royal, the Princess Margaret, etc. This added to the swift and easy change of the succession into a gender neutral one, all this shows that the British monarchy is not as paralysed, immobile and stuck in traditions as many tend to believe. When Her Majesty informs Mr Cameron she intends to lay down her royal prerogatives, the Government will make this possible.
However she has to notify more than one Prime Minister and see legislation passed in 16 other countries - not as simple as it sounds - remember that not all those countries have yet bothered with the Succession to the Crown Act.
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  #747  
Old 06-05-2014, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by scooter View Post
^ and the commonwealth.
The Commonwealth doesn't pass legislation or make binding decisions for anyone - just recommendations for the nations many of which are ignored.

The Commonwealth would have to accept the fact with no say in the matter - other than the 16 nations of the Commonwealth that have HM as their Head of State.

The other 38 nations won't be affected at all as she isn't their Head of State.

The CHOGs would then have a meeting to decide who would replace her - although the view that has been expressed by the HOGs (those that have actually expressed a view publicly) is that the next head will be Charles but that will be determined in the future and it won't matter whether it is a day or 10 years after the end of the present reign as the Commonwealth will continue anyway.

The Queen attends the opening dinner at the meetings and then leaves - she isn't there for the actual decision making meetings. Charles followed her lead last year in Sri Lanka - opened the meeting, went to the opening dinner and the next day left and the HOGs then had the meetings that resulted in the final decisions that were announced but by that time Charles was back in the UK. In other words their role is purely symbolic and they have even less influence there than they do on political affairs in the UK.
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  #748  
Old 06-05-2014, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by timtonruben359 View Post
Besides the Queen's view on the coronation oath and her vow that her whole life would be devoted to service, there is a very easy reason why the Queen wouldn't abdicate. The Queen is head of state of over a dozen country, if she decided to abdicate each country would have to pass a bill approving the abdication as the demise of the crown legislation only accounts for a monarch's death not abdication. When Edward VIII abdicated, Britain could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy.
You're absolutely right, the only chance that we will see a abdication in the UK must be because of a major scandal involving The Queen herself.
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  #749  
Old 06-05-2014, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by timtonruben359 View Post
When Edward VIII abdicated, Britain could perform the necessary paper work for the Dominions...it cannot now. It would be too much of a legal headache and open debate about the monarchy.
When Edward VIII abdicated, Ireland had to pass special law separately of the UK and they did it a liittle bit late, so technically David was King of Ireland a day longer than in the UK and his other dominions. Today, all of HM's realms would have to pass their own laws separately and there would be chaos. An abdication of EII would totally damage or at least shake the institution of monarchy there.
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  #750  
Old 06-06-2014, 02:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The present future King, himself a divorcee, married another divorcee and still is very much in line if succession. This added to the divorces of the Duke of York, the Princess Royal, the Princess Margaret, etc. This added to the swift and easy change of the succession into a gender neutral one, all this shows that the British monarchy is not as paralysed, immobile and stuck in traditions as many tend to believe. When Her Majesty informs Mr Cameron she intends to lay down her royal prerogatives, the Government will make this possible.
Firstly, While I agree that the British Monarch is neither paralysed nor immobile and stuck in traditions, you are letting yourself be influenced by an erroneous assumption that Divorce was the primary moving power in the abdication. It was not.

Secondly, you believe that HM's veiw of life, divorce and monarchy has changed so much that she will not only abdicate, but by naming the PM, sooner rather than later.

You are wrong on both counts. Simply stated, QEII will not abdicate because she gave her word and bond before and to both God and her subjects. She pledged to serve for the whole of her life, and that is why she will not abdicate.
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. . . . . To accomplish that we must give nothing less than the whole of ourselves. There is a motto which has been borne by many of my ancestors - a noble motto, "I serve". Those words were an inspiration to many bygone heirs to the Throne when they made their knightly dedication as they came to manhood. I cannot do quite as they did.

But through the inventions of science I can do what was not possible for any of them. I can make my solemn act of dedication with a whole Empire listening. I should like to make that dedication now. It is very simple.

I declare before you all that my whole life whether it be long or short shall be devoted to your service and the service of our great imperial family to which we all belong.

But I shall not have strength to carry out this resolution alone unless you join in it with me, as I now invite you to do: I know that your support will be unfailingly given. God help me to make good my vow, and God bless all of you who are willing to share in it.
She is both a woman of faith and and a woman of integrity. It is also worth noting that she made this vow on her 21st Birthday and not on her accession to the throne.
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Originally Posted by ROYAL NORWAY View Post
You're absolutely right, the only chance that we will see a abdication in the UK must be because of a major scandal involving The Queen herself.
I think the last of her corgis and dorgies are on their toothless last legs, so possession of a vicious attack dog is not a goer.
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  #751  
Old 06-06-2014, 02:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippyboo View Post
Plus unlike some of the continental monarchies, there is a religious based crowning involved with the British monarchy. A vow to God to serve. Not a vow to put personal above the people which is what Edward VIII did and the Queen has full memory of it. There is a regency system in place to allow for mental and physical illness.
Exactly: The Queen was anointed with holy oil and consecrated in a religious service. That is for life. No other European monarch is enthroned in this way.
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  #752  
Old 06-06-2014, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by LauraS3514 View Post
Exactly: The Queen was anointed with holy oil and consecrated in a religious service. That is for life. No other European monarch is enthroned in this way.
The Pope was anointed, consrated, blessed and what-not-al. This was no hindrance for him (and other Popes in history) to abdicate. What about Archbishops of Canterbury who step down as well? These examples are also "for life". So the argument is somewhat on shaky grounds.

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  #753  
Old 06-06-2014, 03:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
However she has to notify more than one Prime Minister and see legislation passed in 16 other countries - not as simple as it sounds - remember that not all those countries have yet bothered with the Succession to the Crown Act.
In essence you say: when her Most Gracious Majesty annouces to Mr Cameron and informs all Her Realms that she wants to abdicate the kingship, Governments in -for an example- Canada, New Zealand, Australia, etc.- would block this for some reason?

My guess is that when the Queen wants to step down, which is unlikely but we are often surprised by new realities, all her Governments will facilitate this, to the left or to the right. It will be made possible. No problem.
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  #754  
Old 06-06-2014, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Pope was anointed, consrated, blessed and what-not-al. This was no hindrance for him (and other Popes in history) to abdicate. What about Archbishops of Canterbury who step down as well? These examples are also "for life". So the argument is somewhat on shaky grounds.

Each monarchy and each monarch sets their own standards, and have their own traditions to follow. What the Pope does or does not do has absolutely no bearing on how our monarch may choose to spend the autumn of her life.
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  #755  
Old 06-06-2014, 05:46 AM
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Each monarchy and each monarch sets their own standards, and have their own traditions to follow. What the Pope does or does not do has absolutely no bearing on how our monarch may choose to spend the autumn of her life.
I guess the actions of the Pope would not bother the Queen at all indeed. It is just the argument that the Queen apparently could not step down because she has been anointed, blessed and consecrated. That argument has been countered with the examples of the Pope or -better- the supreme leader of Her Majesty's very own Anglican Community which is The Most Reverend and The Right Honourable The Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England.

Recently we saw the enthronement of Justin Welby, very much alike a coronation service. Engaging into clegry, all Archbishops of Canterbury have been anointed, blessed, consecrated. All Archbishops have been enthroned in a lavish ceremony. All of them made vows before the Lord Almighty. Usually all Archbishops of Canterbury died as Archbishop indeed. But the last 8 Archbishops all retired from their High Office, with this breaking centuries of tradition. So even the Church of England is able to cope with changes...

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  #756  
Old 06-06-2014, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I guess the actions of the Pope would not bother the Queen at all indeed. It is just the argument that the Queen apparently could not step down because she has been anointed, blessed and consecrated. That argument has been countered with the examples of the Pope or -better- the supreme leader of Her Majesty's very own Anglican Community which is The Most Reverend and The Right Honourable The Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England.

Recently we saw the enthronement of Justin Welby, very much alike a coronation service. Engaging into clegry, all Archbishops of Canterbury have been anointed, blessed, consecrated. All Archbishops have been enthroned in a lavish ceremony. All of them made vows before the Lord Almighty. Usually all Archbishops of Canterbury died as Archbishop indeed. But the last 8 Archbishops all retired from their High Office, with this breaking centuries of tradition. So even the Church of England is able to cope with changes...

I find your argument compelling, Duc et Pair. If the Pope and the Anglican Archbishops can retire, so can the Queen. Traditions change, and sometimes I think that sort of change is a very good thing.
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  #757  
Old 06-06-2014, 08:14 AM
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Pope Benedict was the first to resign since 1415-not a trend. Several previous AoC have given up their post. When was the last not to?

It been over a yr since the new law for the succession passed in the UK but it still hasn't passed in all of the realms and there are challenging court proceedings in Canada. It can't be assumed that any abdication bill will sail thru.

If the Queen doesn't want to retire, she doesn't have too. It's her decision. If she did want to, the regency act is probably vague enough to set Charles up as a regent without abidication.
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  #758  
Old 06-06-2014, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I guess the actions of the Pope would not bother the Queen at all indeed. It is just the argument that the Queen apparently could not step down because she has been anointed, blessed and consecrated. That argument has been countered with the examples of the Pope or -better- the supreme leader of Her Majesty's very own Anglican Community which is The Most Reverend and The Right Honourable The Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England.

Recently we saw the enthronement of Justin Welby, very much alike a coronation service. Engaging into clegry, all Archbishops of Canterbury have been anointed, blessed, consecrated. All Archbishops have been enthroned in a lavish ceremony. All of them made vows before the Lord Almighty. Usually all Archbishops of Canterbury died as Archbishop indeed. But the last 8 Archbishops all retired from their High Office, with this breaking centuries of tradition. So even the Church of England is able to cope with changes...

I have to admit, I do not understand your reasoning. I am not aware of the exact vows a Pope takes but I am sure they are not unto death. They may have stayed until death but I don't think it was written.

The Archbishop of Canterbury likewise, does not take vows unto death.

Somehow the connection between the Queen abdicating and the last Pope of the Roman Catholic Church and the last 8 Archbishop's of Canterbury just does not make sense. It is like comparing apples and oranges.
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  #759  
Old 06-06-2014, 06:37 PM
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I have to admit, I do not understand your reasoning. I am not aware of the exact vows a Pope takes but I am sure they are not unto death. They may have stayed until death but I don't think it was written.

The Archbishop of Canterbury likewise, does not take vows unto death.

Somehow the connection between the Queen abdicating and the last Pope of the Roman Catholic Church and the last 8 Archbishop's of Canterbury just does not make sense. It is like comparing apples and oranges.
I agree. the vows that the pope and AoC made were as priests and that vow still holds. they have given up a role and not their vows.

HMQ will never want to abdicate, but I hope that with her sense of duty, if she couldnt do the job that is necessary, she would do so for the sake of her realms but part. UK
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  #760  
Old 06-06-2014, 07:23 PM
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HMQ will never want to abdicate, but I hope that with her sense of duty, if she couldnt do the job that is necessary, she would do so for the sake of her realms but part. UK
This is what it boils down to for me. She vowed to serve for life, and if she can no longer do the job she can best serve those she vowed to serve by passing the baton to the next player. No-one could seriously argue he hasn't been sufficiently trained and prepared for the task.
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