The Royal Forums Coat of Arms

Go Back   The Royal Forums > Reigning Houses > British Royals > Queen Elizabeth II and the Duke of Edinburgh

Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #141  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:41 PM
Muhler's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Eastern Jutland, Denmark
Posts: 4,586
Excellent. We will look forward to the reply.

I've been asking questions about when and how the renounciation took place and if there are any documents from a historian.

I hope to get a reply.
__________________

__________________
I love work, it absolutely fascinates me. I can sit for hours looking at people working.
Reply With Quote
  #142  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:52 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
You point to the Act of 1917 which dealt with foreigners with British titles(Philip was born a British citizen and a Prince of Greece and Denmark )

Other than people saying I'm wrong, I don't see you providing any links or info that says Philip renounced his titles.
Actually all the people I referenced were British (Teck/Cambridge, Battenberg/Mountbatten) and in 1917 were considered as members of the BRF. It was GVs wish that they give up their German titles and he gave them British peerages instead. I was teasing you, but really what documentation is there that they did in fact each formally renounce these titles or that said renunciation was accepted by the German heads of houses that Britain was at war with? Perhaps they really still are Princes of Saxe Coburg and Princesses of Battenberg. I was giving you a whole new avenue to research in your desire to add more titles to the BRF. lol.
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #143  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:53 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by branchg View Post
I think we're getting lost in the trees here. The fact of the matter is Philip voluntarily relinquished his Greek and Danish title in order to make himself more acceptable to marry the future Queen. In line with that, he took the name of Philip Mountbatten when he naturalized, converted to the Anglican faith and renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne.

Whether there is a piece of paper with his signature on it is irrelevant. It's a matter of historical record he did all of those things due to opposition from the Court and some members of the Government to Elizabeth marrying a foreigner.
The fact of the matter is Philip voluntarily relinquished his Greek and Danish title ---- But with all due respect, why is this a fact and just not your personal opinion?

I have provided links from Garter King of Arms, various government departments stating that HRH the Duke of Edinburgh remained a Prince of Greece and Denmark in 1947

Can someone provide me with evidence that all the opinions of Garter and others are wrong?

Even the gentleman at the embassy seems to think Phillip is legally a Prince of Denmark because of his decent from Christian IX

The main thing I have gong for me is there is zero evidence he renounced his titles.

Even Artemisia, who did some research on it admits there is no evidence of renunciation although her personal opinion is he did renounce.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #144  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
The biography of Princess Alice, Philips mother by Hugo Vickers was written with the full cooperation of Prince Philip and with access to Philips private archives and the Broadland archives, and with cooperation from Philip's staff and relatives. Philp also read a draft of the book and answered more questions after his review.
P323..."in the meantime, Philip finally renounced his rights to the Greek throne on 28 February 1947 and became a British subject. At his own request he ceased to be HRH Prince Philip of Greece and became Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten, RN."

It certainly seems as if Philip, as far as he in concerned, ceased to be a foreign prince or have foreign titles as of 28 February 1947. Seems rather pointless to want to foist titles on him which he believes he voluntarily gave up and does not claim for himself or his heirs.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #145  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:24 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,181
Thank you for this quote NGalitzine. If Philip himself says he renounced his titles of Greece and Denmark than I stand corrected.

I would still like to know how he went about renouncing his titles. It appears to be verbal because there is no written record of it, that much is for certain.

Garter must be of the opinion when he stated in 1947 that HRH the Duke of Edinburgh was a naturalized Prince of Greece and Denmark, that the verbal declaration didn't have the legal authority required

Its entirely possible he verbally renounced his titles but legally remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark.

Just to be clear, I'm not the one 'hoisting' titles on Philip. I was merely quoting senior government officials and the Chief Herald of England and Wales who believe he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #146  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:35 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
I suppose all things are possible. From the biography it is clear that everything was coordinated by Louis Mountbatten and discussions between GVI of UK and GII of Greece and involved concerns about the recently restored Greek monarchy and the impact a renunciation so soon after the restoration might have. In the end everything was agreed to in order for Philip to become Lt Philip Mountbatten, a British citizen and much more acceptable as fiance to Princess Elizabeth than an impoverished prince from the recently restored Greek royal family.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #147  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:56 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: here and there, Greece
Posts: 535
I have read the posts above and I'll try now to give my opinion on the matter. Before everything else I must stress something: I have read in the past the articles of the Hellenic Constitutions from the times of Otto's reign which dealt with the royals and they are perhaps the most imcomplete constitutions ever in these matters - they don't even clarify the line of succesion, whether it is semi salic or male primogeniture. Also , I don't remember to have ever read one single article in any Hellenic Constitution that stated any reagulation about who is a and Prince/Princess of Greece , any criteria of the matters of spouse or even that members of the family need permission to marry from the Head of the House in order to marry and retain their succession rights and titles- AFAIK there has only been one legal decision about this, regarding the marriage of King Alexander and Aspasia Manos, where the court decide that the marriage between them was perfectly legal , but when it came to titles and the line of succesion, the one who should decide about titles and the succesion was the King, and it has been like that ever since, with the King alwas acting as he pleased .



In three cases I know, titles did exist even without any or with questionable succesion rights
a) Alexandra, the daughter of King Alexander and Aspasia who was never eligible for the Throne but was a Princess
b) Peter ,son of Prince George and Marie Bonaparte, whom the whole Greek Dynasty practically renounced after his marriage to a Russian commoner, but was still referred as a Prince ,inside and outside the country
c) Michael , who renounced his succesion rights before marrying but is still a Prince, and the lasrt time I checked was on the website of the GRF (his daughter however are not)
In the case of Philip I honestly don't know what happened. I have seen a scanned paper on the Net about this matter and I also posted it here somewhere.What I understand though is that King George II was able to decide on the matter, without any Greek laws to place boundaries, not even stating what it would take to make the renounciation valid. And that following precedent, perhaps Philip could continue to use his titles if he wished (I don't know if renouncing his nationality plays a part though)
BTW, Philip and his descendants are definately not eligible to succeed on the Greek throne regardless on any valid or invalid renounciations, because they don't fill 2 of the 3 constitutional conditions : a) Having Greek nationality and b) being Member of the Eastern Orthodox Church.

PS At the time of the marriage between Philip and Elizabeth, the Greek royals asked Spyridon Markezinis to investigate all the legal aspects of the matter. Markezinis wrote many books about the history of Greece , with reference on the Greek royals so perhaps he also wrote something on the matter. Ill try to check it during the holidays if there's anything interesting thers

EDIT: Here is the scanned paper I reffered to , I see it mentions nothing about titles http://www.styx.gr/photos/eggrafoadeias.gif
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #148  
Old 12-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
Even if Philip "legally" remained a Prince of Greece & Denmark, it is irrelevant since he relinquished it to become a British subject with commoner status. The King then created him a Royal Duke and Elizabeth granted him the status of Prince.

Philip is certainly not a person to stand on ceremony and he didn't care about his Greek/Danish titles anyway.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #149  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:10 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,181
That scan is interesting because why would Philip who renounced his princely titles need permission from the Greek King to serve in the RN?

I notice the King refers to him as Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark

I am more convinced than ever that although he verbally 'renounced' his titles that has no legal standing and he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark even today
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #150  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:15 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: here and there, Greece
Posts: 535
note the date though: that document is from 1944 as far I can see before any renounciaton and was probably written when the future wedding has just been agreed upon. He definately needed his cousin's permission back then for eveything he decided. he was still a member of the GRF
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #151  
Old 12-12-2012, 02:25 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I would still like to know how he went about renouncing his titles. It appears to be verbal because there is no written record of it, that much is for certain.
I suspect you would need to gain access to the archives of George VI of Uk or George II of The Hellenes or private achives of Philip to determine if the renunciation was verbal or in writing. It possible Lord Mountbattens archives could give you details you want since he was the one who seems to have coordinated the whole arrangement.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #152  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:28 PM
Royal Highness
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 1,805
Whatever Philip did and how he did it - I'm convinced if asked his cousin Constantine will declare him a prince and member of the family. As for QMII I don't see her being difficult in case Philip wants to use his "old" titles again. You normally (whatever that means, okay) only renounces your succession rights, but not your personal status.

There is only one Habsburg archduke that comes to mind who was stripped of his titles and of course the Scandinavian princes who married unequally but I can't recall a case when a prince lost his titles because he married a future queen.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #153  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:32 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: , United States
Posts: 2,731
He didn't lose his titles, he voluntarily relinquished them in preparation for becoming the Consort to the British Sovereign. Quite a difference.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #154  
Old 12-12-2012, 04:52 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Whatever Philip did and how he did it - I'm convinced if asked his cousin Constantine will declare him a prince and member of the family. As for QMII I don't see her being difficult in case Philip wants to use his "old" titles again. You normally (whatever that means, okay) only renounces your succession rights, but not your personal status.

There is only one Habsburg archduke that comes to mind who was stripped of his titles and of course the Scandinavian princes who married unequally but I can't recall a case when a prince lost his titles because he married a future queen.
I agree with you. Renouncing succession is different from giving up your titles and I'm convinced Philip is a Prince of Greece and Denmark and IMO , Constantine would agree. (Philip's verbal renunciation had more to do with the optics in the UK and I agree with Garter King of Arms it is not legally binding)
I'm waiting on a reply from the Danish Embassy in Canada who forwarded my question to the Danish Royal Court.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #155  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:00 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
Since Constantine was booted out of Greece wouldn't it be a rather hollow "title" for him to give Philip such a designation? Have you written to Constantine's office to ask about Philip's renunciation of his Greek rights and title? It would seem he would be closer to the issue since all of the 1947 negotiations were between Louis Mountbatten, George VI and George II of Greece and not with the Danish court.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #156  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:02 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,427


Aside from that, I'm not even certain it is possible for a former Monarch to grant a Princely title to anyone.
A title granted in the manner will hardly be recognised with the exception of some Monarchies.
Reply With Quote
  #157  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:11 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Toronto (ON) & London (UK), Canada
Posts: 5,262
I just cannot imagine any circumstances under which Philip would ask for a restoration of titles that he clearly had no problems giving up in 1947. Why would he want them for himself and why would he want to complicate the lives of his children? The BRF have gone to a great deal of time and effort to stress their Britishness and to keep continental royals at a bit of a distance so taking on foreign titles doesn't really fit with the plan.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #158  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 8,123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
That is incorrect.
Prince Phillip was never in line for the Danish throne as he was Prince of Denmark and not to Denmark. - Both titles are usually translated in English as Prince of Denmark.
Anyway, the change in the Law of Succession in 1953 made it very clear who could be in line for the throne.
BP clearly told the British High Commission in 1947 and again in 1952 that he and, in 1953, Charles were in the line of succession to the Danish throne as male line descendents of George I of the Hellenes who didn't ever renounce his claim to that throne but moved himself below that of his younger brother.

In 1954 the information from BP listed both Philip and Charles as still being Princes of Denmark.

I have the copies of the documents that were given to employees working at the High Commission at the time - headed from Buckingham Palace with the wording 'by instructions from HM The King/Queen this is the information to be given to the public if asked'..... The document is numerous pages long and doesn't only concern Philip, but Elizabeth, George VI and The Queen Mum, lines of succession, Charles and Anne (1953 and 1954) Margaret, Queen Mary along with information on how to greet them, how to be involved in a discussion with them etc etc.

I have a lot of confidence in the British Royal Family knowing the status of members of their own family and that they would also not be putting out incorrect information.

That the line of succession to the Danish throne changed in 1953 is irrelevant to whether Philip was ever in that line - that change took him out simply because it denied the right of succession to all the descendents of Christian IX's younger sons and limited to only his eldest son's heirs (like denying the right of inheritance to the British throne to Anne, Andrew and Edward's children and limiting to only Charles'). Until then, the Danes wouldn't even allow a woman to inherit so they took the opportunity to change both the line of succession and open the succession to women.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #159  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:16 PM
Artemisia's Avatar
Heir Presumptive
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Yerevan, Armenia
Posts: 5,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
I just cannot imagine any circumstances under which Philip would ask for a restoration of titles that he clearly had no problems giving up in 1947. Why would he want them for himself and why would he want to complicate the lives of his children? The BRF have gone to a great deal of time and effort to stress their Britishness and to keep continental royals at a bit of a distance so taking on foreign titles doesn't really fit with the plan.
Oh, I too cannot envision a situation when Prince Philip and/or his descendants might request the Danish Queen of the former Greek King to restore their rights to Princely titles from those countries. However, even if former King Constantine did decide to grant his cousin his former title, I don't believe it would actually be recognised anywhere but Britain and other monarchies (and even that is not certain).
Reply With Quote
  #160  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:18 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada
Posts: 1,181
Danish Royal Family - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following relations of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh are members of the extended Greek and Danish royal families. However, unlike members of the Greek and Norwegian branches, [B]Prince Philip, as the senior dynast of this branch, renounced (upon taking British citizenship) his right to succeed to the Greek (but not Danish) throne, discontinuing use of his title Prince of Denmark (as well as Prince of Greece), and assuming the surname "Mountbatten". Nonetheless, all are members of the House of Oldenburg by agnatic descent or marriage:[/B]
The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh and Elizabeth II
The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales (the Duke of Edinburgh's eldest son) and Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall (formerly Parker-Bowles, née Shand)
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge (the Prince of Wales' older son) and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (née Middleton)
Prince Harry of Wales (the Prince of Wales' younger son)
The Princess Anne, Princess Royal (the Duke of Edinburgh's only daughter)
The Prince Andrew, Duke of York (the Duke of Edinburgh's second son)
Princess Beatrice of York (the Duke of York's older daughter)
Princess Eugenie of York (the Duke of York's younger daughter)
The Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex (the Duke of Edinburgh's third and youngest son) and Sophie, Countess of Wessex (née Rhys-Jones)
Lady Louise Windsor (the Earl of Wessex's only daughter)
Viscount Severn (the Earl of Wessex's only son)


Its interesting it says Philip discontinued use of the title Prince of Greece and Denmark and not that he renounced those titles.

There is also evidence from the BRF that Philip and Charles were in fact in the line of secession to the Danish throne until the laws were changed
__________________

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





Additional Links
Popular Tags
abdication birth birthday bourbon-parma camilla chris o'neill crown prince frederik crown prince haakon crown princess letizia crown princess mary crown princess mette-marit crown princess victoria danish royals engagement fashion genealogy grand duchess maria teresa grand duke henri habsburg hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume hohenzollern infanta elena king abdullah king abdullah ii king albert ii king carl xvi gustav king juan carlos king philippe king willem-alexander norway palace picture thread pom pregnancy prince constantijn prince felipe prince felix prince frederik prince henrik prince joachim prince laurent princess princess alexia (2005 -) princess annette princess ariane princess beatrix princess catharina-amalia princess charlene princess haya princess laurentien princess letizia princess mabel princess madeleine princess marie princess marilene princess mary princess maxima queen mathilde queen maxima queen rania queen silvia queen sofia royal russia sheikh state visit wedding willem-alexander william


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:29 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2014
Jelsoft Enterprises

Royal News Delivered to your Email!

You can get the latest Royal News right in your inbox.

unsusbcribe at anytime with one click

Close [X]