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  #101  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:51 PM
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have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.-------

So Garter King of Arms says he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark and the Danish opinion isn't clear
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  #102  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?
I admire your persistance, but the truth is that Philip renounced his titles when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.
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Philip var født græsk statsborger med titlerne prins af Grækenland og Danmark. Han gav afkald på både titlerne og statsborgerskabet for at gifte sig med den daværende prinsesse Elizabeth.
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Philip was born a greek citizen with the titles prince of Greece and Denmark. He renounced titles and citizenship when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.
Translation from the Danish wikipedia site on Prince Philip.
Considering that QMII wasn't a regent at the time of the renunciation of his titles, I doubt that was necessary. Whenever I've heard her talk about Prince Philip, she's called him Prince Philip or the Duke of Edinburgh - never "Prince Philip of Denmark and Greece".

Also I think it's pretty safe and sound to take it from Jon Bloch Skipper, he's a great historian, has written lots of good books about the royal family and has a huge knowledge when it comes to royals.
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  #103  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.-------

So Garter King of Arms says he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark and the Danish opinion isn't clear
In this context, my knowledge isn't clear. I can only refer to a royal expert and a site with a very comprehensive knowledge about the DRF.

For a final answer I suggest you mail Hofmaskallatet: Kontakt - Kongehuset
E-mail: Hofmarskallatet@kongehuset.dk

Or alternatively Rigsarkivet: The Danish State Archives
Mail: mailbox@ra.sa.dk

It should be interesting to learn about their reply.

The worst possible thing that can happen is that you get no reply, right?
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  #104  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:06 PM
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Thank you Muhler and everyone for your opinions and answers. I find this subject of immense interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
I admire your persistance, but the truth is that Philip renounced his titles when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.
With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia

House of Glücksburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heirs to the Commonwealth realms and their ancestors

The heirs to the Commonwealth realms are descended from Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark, a paternal grandson of George I of Greece. However, by Letters Patent of 8 February 1960, Queen Elizabeth II declared that her children with Prince Philip would belong to the House of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness, and the title of Prince or Princess. (Those who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.
The agnatic lineage is continued from Friedrich Wilhelm, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

Christian IX of Denmark
George I of Greece
Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark
Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark[2]
Charles, Prince of Wales[2]
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge[2]
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  #105  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia
Well, in this case you should trust wikipedia
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  #106  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Well, in this case you should trust wikipedia
College of Arms

No thanks

Garter is responsible to the Earl Marshal for the running of the College of Arms. He is the principal adviser to the Sovereign of the United Kingdom with respect to ceremonial and heraldry, with specific responsibility for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and, with the exception of Canada, for Commonwealth realms of which The Queen is Sovereign. He also serves as the King of Arms of the Order of the Garter and his seal and signature appear on all grants of arms made by the College.
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  #107  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:19 PM
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Yes but he is not responsible for the titulatur of members of the former Greek or reigning Danish royal families.
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  #108  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia
That's fine, but do you also take his opinion over the monarchy itself? On their website it states rather clearly that Prince Philip renounced his Danish and Greek titles.
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  #109  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by PssKatie View Post
That's fine, but do you also take his opinion over the monarchy itself? On their website it states rather clearly that Prince Philip renounced his Danish and Greek titles.
And how did he renounce it?? There is no record at all of this so called renouncement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Yes but he is not responsible for the titulatur of members of the former Greek or reigning Danish royal families.
And what is Queen Margrethe's opinion on Phillips status?? I haven't come across it
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  #110  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Kotroman View Post
If the relevant house laws do not provide for a possibility of renouncing the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark, then the Duke of Edinburgh is still a prince of Greece and Denmark according to those laws. Even if they do, but no formal document was ever signed, then he still is. I'm inclined to believe that the Queen, the Princess Royal, the Duchess of Cornwall, the Countess of Wessex, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of York's daughters and the Earl of Wessex' daughter are all indeed princesses of Greece and Denmark, and that the Prince of Wales and his brothers are princes of Greece and Denmark according to the same rule that enables any other Greco-Danish prince to use those titles. However, it all rests on the assumption that the Duke of Edinburgh's renunciation is invalid or non-existent.

Remember: one can choose not to use a title, but it doesn't mean that the person is longer entitled to it. Empress Frederick was still a princess of the United Kingdom and the Earl of Wessex' children are still entitled to that style, though it is not used by choice.

That doesn't mean that they are not also members of the House of Oldenburg, or, more specifically, the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The Queen couldn't alter the house laws of Saxe-Cobrurg and Gotha or the house laws of S-H-S-G, could she?

There's another, partly related issue. If we assume that the Queen belongs to the same house her father belonged to, and his father, and the father of his father, up to Prince Albert - and I don't think that's disputable - then the House of Windsor is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, i.e. of the House of Wettin. Now, Prince Charles cannot possibly be a member of a house which is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and he can't possibly be a Wettin. There must be a break somewhere, at some point. Otherwise, it could be argued that even the King of Sweden and his granddaughter are Wettins, members of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
I think we have to remember the Greek Royal House, including Philip, spent most of their life in-exile. George II had only recently been restored to the throne when Philip asked for Elizabeth's hand in marriage.

There was a lot of hostility at the time from the British press and the Royal Household that Elizabeth was marrying a "foreigner", even though Philip spent most of his teenage years in Britain and had served in the Royal Navy during World War II. In order to address these issues, it was important that Philip be seen as "British" and not "Greek".

In line with that, he was naturalized to British citizenship as the first step in the process, which included renouncing his right of succession to the throne in Greece, something that was documented and noted in Hugo Vickers' biography of Philip's mother. He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England.

There is no question that his descendants are not considered to be part of the House of Glucksburg or the Greek Royal House as Philip obviously was marrying a future Sovereign. He was created a Duke of the Realm and Charles and Anne were born HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, something they normally would not have been entitled to as female-line descendants of The Sovereign, by Letters Patent of George VI. At that point, they took their rank and style not from their father, but from the will of The Sovereign.

Elizabeth is technically a monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert. As we know, her grandfather declared the name of the royal house to be "Windsor" after World War I to distance himself from his German blood.

Technically, Charles will be the first monarch of the House of Glucksburg, et. all, but by declaration of The Sovereign, the name of the royal house remains Windsor. Of course, Charles could change this once he is on the throne, but I think it's more likely the name would become "Mountbatten-Windsor" to honour his father.
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  #111  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:30 PM
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Your posts in this thread AMAZE me. You all are clearly enchanted by the topic and dance like angels on the head of a pin trying to determine the correct interpretations for styles and titles. I always read along and I am always captivated by the debate.

Sometime, I imagine Queen EII or her dear Philip reading the Forums and I wonder what they think about all our speculation. For all we know they could be members trying to guide opinion on matters - or they could be stirring the pot. Or, they could lurk, silently. The idea makes me smile.
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  #112  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
And what is Queen Margrethe's opinion on Phillips status?? I haven't come across it
Why would she express any opinion at all since the matter was settled when she was a child and herself not even heiress to the throne. By the time she came to the throne in 1972 Philip had long been established as HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
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  #113  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:35 PM
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@branchg He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England. ===== And the source of this is what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
Why would she express any opinion at all since the matter was settled when she was a child and herself not even heiress to the throne. By the time she came to the throne in 1972 Philip had long been established as HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
Again the source please. Garter says he was HRH Duke of Edinburgh AND a Prince of Greece and Denmark
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  #114  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
By letters patent of Nov. 19, 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947, LCO 6/3559).

Garter states clearly he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark
I don't believe that Garter knows for a fact that Prince Philip is still a Prince of Greece and Denmark because of the way he starts his sentence with "I believe". Garter is stating a belief not substantial proof.
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  #115  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 PM
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With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?
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  #116  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
@branchg He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England. ===== And the source of this is what?
Like I said, it's all right there in black and white in Vickers' biography of Princess Andrew of Greece, Philip's mother. He interviewed Philip extensively for the book and had full access to the Royal Archives and the Mountbatten Family Archives.

I don't know why you have such a difficult time accepting this. Isn't it logical that Philip would renounce his Greek titles (which actually meant little to him considering the history of the throne in Greece) and convert from Greek Orthodoxy to marry the future Queen?
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  #117  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?
Why should Garter be considered an expert opinion on matters that concern the Greek and Danish royal families? And why are you trying to foist foreign titles on a man who apparently believes he willingly gave up his foreign titles to become a British commoner and then a British HRH and peer and then a British prince? He seems to have quite enough titles and honours for a lifetime.
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  #118  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?
Keep in mind the Garter of Arms is not the Lord Chancellor or a constitutional expert either. He was responding to a question from the House of Lords as to Philip's status of HRH and whether that meant he was also a Prince of the UK.
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  #119  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Again the source please. Garter says he was HRH Duke of Edinburgh AND a Prince of Greece and Denmark
What source are you looking for, that QMII was a small child when Philip married Elizabeth in 1947 or that she herself did not become heiress to the Danish throne until the changes made in 1953? Under what circumstances can you imagine QMII claiming Philip as a Danish Prince, especially since he is not even in the line of succession to the Danish throne?
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  #120  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
And why are you trying to foist foreign titles on a man who apparently believes he willingly gave up his foreign titles to become a British commoner and then a British HRH and peer and then a British prince? He seems to have quite enough titles and honours for a lifetime.
Yes, in fact, in Vickers biography of Philip's mother, it states Philip didn't care about the 1957 Letters Patent creating him a Prince of the UK in his own right. It was Lord Mountbatten who kept moaning and groaning about it. Philip was perfectly content to be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.
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