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  #81  
Old 12-10-2012, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl;1492053[I
Garter states clearly he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark[/I]
Garter stated his opinion that Philip may have remained a Prince of Greece & Denmark, even though he was naturalized to British citizenship. In fact, Philip did not remain a Prince of Greece & Denmark because he renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne and took the name of Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN when he became a British subject.

George VI created him a Royal Highness and Duke of the Realm prior to his wedding. He remained a Royal Duke until 1957 when The Queen issued Letters Patent creating him a Prince of the UK with the style of "HRH The Prince Philip" in his own right.

Philip's children are not Prince/Princess of Greece & Denmark nor do they have any rights to the Danish throne.
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  #82  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:03 PM
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Renouncing succession takes away your title of Prince? Can you provide any sources for this statement?

Prince Philip was a British subject before he became naturalized in 1947. In fact, he had been from birth because of the Sophia Naturalization Act . This Act, passed in 1705, gave in perpetuity the right of British citizenship to Sophia's non-Catholic descendants. At the time of Prince Philip's naturalization in February 1947, no one seemed aware that this procedure was unnecessary, not even his uncle Lord Louis Mountbatten who "worked diligently towards the granting of Philip's British citizenship" (Prince Philip: A Biography, by Denis Judd, London: Michael Joseph Ltd., 1980). This fact was discovered only after the legal victory of his cousin, Prince Ernst August of Hanover, in which he won his right to British citizenship. In 1956, HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover (1914-1987) sought and won his battle to claim the status of British citizen because of the Sophia Naturalization Act. Prince Ernst August's claim to this right was based on the fact that he was a lineal descendant of the Electress Sophia and a Protestant.

Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark is a British subject under the Sophia Naturalization Act 1705 and didn't have to renounce any titles. He was both a Prince of Greece and Denmark and a British subject, If Philip didn't have British citizenship than you would be correct but he was both a citizen and also a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
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  #83  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:39 PM
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That is irrelevant to the question of his name, title or style. Once Philip undertook naturalization, he took the name of Philip Mountbatten, RN as a British subject. At that point, he was no longer a Prince of Greece & Denmark, but Lt. Mountbatten in the UK.

Foreign titles are automatically lost upon becoming a British subject unless a Royal Warrant from The Sovereign is granted recognizing the rank and title in the UK. Philip remained a commoner until George VI created him a Peer with royal rank.
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  #84  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:47 PM
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Prince Philip was a citizen from birth, as stated above there was no need for naturalization because he was already a subject and citizen. He was both British and a Prince of Greece and Denmark

Garter states that when Lt Mountbatten was made a HRH and Duke of Edinburgh in 1947 he was STILL a Prince of Greece and Denmark - See below

By letters patent of Nov. 19, 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947, LCO 6/3559).


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  #85  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:33 PM
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Maybe the document is one of those mystery things in the Queen's purse?
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  #86  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:44 PM
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Garter was stating an opinion, not necessarily a matter of fact or of law. The laws of the UK state that one cannot bear a foreign title as a British subject. Whatever the status of his Greek royal title "Prince of Greece and Denmark" in the UK he was from 1947 Lt Philip Mountbatten and then HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and then HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.
It is sort of a question that doesn't really matter since Philip does not claim or use his former styles and neither do his children so why try and saddle him with something he apparently believes he gave up in 1947 ?Greece is a republic so his former Greek title is pretty useless to him and his children. He is not an heir to the Danish throne because he is not a descendent of Christian X and the styling of "Prince of Greece and Denmark" was a Greek title anyway.
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  #87  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:59 PM
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^^^^^ Thanks for your reply

Thank you everyone for your opinions on this issue of the Duke of Edinburgh being a Prince of Greece and Denmark.
I'm convinced he is but that is just my opinion.

Thanks to branchg, NGalitzine, Artemisia and Muhler and Kataryn for their contributions.
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  #88  
Old 12-11-2012, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
That is irrelevant to the question of his name, title or style. Once Philip undertook naturalization, he took the name of Philip Mountbatten, RN as a British subject. At that point, he was no longer a Prince of Greece & Denmark, but Lt. Mountbatten in the UK.

Foreign titles are automatically lost upon becoming a British subject unless a Royal Warrant from The Sovereign is granted recognizing the rank and title in the UK. Philip remained a commoner until George VI created him a Peer with royal rank.
That is not true. These titles are not recognized officially in the Uk but they still exist. If they are recognized in other countries, then the holder can use them there. The Greek Royals eg live in London on using Danish diplomat passports, passports which state that they have Royal rank and titles.

Philip of Greece and Denmark did not have to renounce his titles on becoming a British subject because his British nationality was based on a law which does not ask that of Sophia's descendants. At the time of his naturalization, this was unknown. But IMHO this fact made the whole naturalization process for him void. Thus even though he goes by the name Mountbatten, he still should be able to use his Greek and Denmark title in Britain.

But - it seems he personally feels he renounced these titles by his own wish in order to become the British husband of a British queen. IMHO we should respect that.

(But of course it would be a nice tribute to his Royal line if at his funeral one day they'd add his Greek and Danish princely title to his British ones. He is, after all, a prince born to the House of SHSG and his descendants are male-line descendants of this House as well, a House which reigns in Norway and Denmark, so is still very active in Europe. )
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  #89  
Old 12-11-2012, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
Philip of Greece and Denmark did not have to renounce his titles on becoming a British subject because his British nationality was based on a law which does not ask that of Sophia's descendants. At the time of his naturalization, this was unknown. But IMHO this fact made the whole naturalization process for him void. Thus even though he goes by the name Mountbatten, he still should be able to use his Greek and Denmark title in Britain.
Even if he was a British citizen by birth that would not give him the legal right as a British citizen to use his foreign title in the UK. That would still have required a royal licence and they have not been granted since 1932. There were other natural born British citizens who held foreign titles such as Counts of the Holy Roman Empire (as with the Portlands who were Counts Bentinck) but their right to use such a title in the UK ended in 1932 or at least at the death of the holders as of in 1932.
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  #90  
Old 12-11-2012, 03:49 PM
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It will be interesting if Garter King of Arms reads out the Duke of Edinburgh's Greek and Danish styles and titles during his funeral

I respect the opinions of the members of TRF but in this case I will defer to The Garter Principal King of Arms, the senior King of Arms, and the senior Officer of Arms of the College of Arms, the heraldic authority with jurisdiction over England, Wales and Northern Ireland,who states Phillip is a Prince of Greece and Denmark

At least this will clear the air once and for all , if he is indeed a Prince of Greece and Denmark.

Of there is no dispute Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince William are members of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg though agnatic decent
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  #91  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
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In that case it would be very much an empty title.

If Prince Phillip is no longer acknowledged as Prince of Denmark in Denmark and by the DRF, then what is read at his funeral and what the Garter says is irrelevant.

Not even Princess Benedikte's children have the title of Prince/ss of Denmark, and she is after all the sister of a reigning monarch.

As far as I see it, whether Prince Phillip is allowed to call himself Prince of Denmark again is not up to QEII but QMII.
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  #92  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Of there is no dispute Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince William are members of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg though agnatic decent
All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor. On April 9, 1952, The Queen officially declared it her "Will and Pleasure that I and my children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor".

On February 8, 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Winston Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of HRH Prince/Princess.

However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".
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  #93  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
If Prince Phillip is no longer acknowledged as Prince of Denmark in Denmark and by the DRF, then what is read at his funeral and what the Garter says is irrelevant.
Not sure about that as Philip is a male-line descendant while Benedikte's children are female-line. But you're right: I don't think the official declaration of the renounciation of Philip's titles were surely noticed at both the Greek and Danish Courts and it is up to QMII to decide what she makes of it.

If The British decide to honour Philip's birth as a prince of Greece and Denmark one day (hopefully long in the future) then of course they will check with the Danish Court and King Constantine about that. And if so, the Danish and Greek realtives will have a place of honour.

But I don't think we need to discuss this any further as we have next to no data on which to base our opinions apart from Muhler's long-standing knowledge of Danish courtal proceedings. So my resume is: wait and see.
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  #94  
Old 12-11-2012, 05:14 PM
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I knew I had something about this in my archive: https://www.box.com/s/32co3bt4x8apj7coua80

This is a Q&A in Billed Bladet #29, 2011.
In which the historian and DRF expert Jon Bloch Skipper answer a question about Prince Phillip.

Translation.
A Hanne Knudsen asks: I read in Billed Bladet that Prince Phillip considers himself to be Danish, why?

Jon Bloch Skipper:
Prince Phillip was born on Korfu on 10. June 1921 as son of Prince Andreas of Greece and Denmark. Prince Andrea's father was King Georg I of Greece, who was born as Prince Wilhelm of Glücksburg on Christmas Eve 1845 in the Yellow Mansion (currently the seat of the DRF administration next to Amalienborg).
Wilhelm became a Danish Prince in 1853, when his father Christian (IX) became the Danish Heir to the Throne.
Christian IX who was Prince Phillip's great-grandfather became King of Denmark in November 1863 (*) and ruled until his death in January 1906.
Phillip renounced (**) his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and his Greek citizenship when he became engaged to and later married the then Princess Elizabeth.

(*) He incidentally spoke Danish with a very heavy German accent, which was somewhat of a problem initially because of the Danish nationalism of the time, which was a part of why we had the Second Schleswigan War in 1864, which ended up with the (German) duchies of Schleswig and Holstein seceeding from DK - Or rather becoming Preussian. Christian IX thereby lost the lands in which he was born and raised and had his closest family.

(**) The keyword, which I have seen consistently is "afkald", which I cannot translate as anything but renounce.

That at least must be considered the official Danish view on the matter.
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  #95  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
Christian IX who was Prince Phillip's great-grandfather became King of Denmark in November 1863 (*) and ruled until his death in January 1906.
Phillip renounced (**) his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and his Greek citizenship when he became engaged to and later married the then Princess Elizabeth.
But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?
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  #96  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:06 PM
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Even if he was a British citizen by birth that would not give him the legal right as a British citizen to use his foreign title in the UK. That would still have required a royal licence and they have not been granted since 1932. There were other natural born British citizens who held foreign titles such as Counts of the Holy Roman Empire (as with the Portlands who were Counts Bentinck) but their right to use such a title in the UK ended in 1932 or at least at the death of the holders as of in 1932.
The problem with this argument is that it had been forgotten that their were foreign title holders who were also born as British citizens. It was assumed that they were actually foreigners with foreign titles rather than British citizens with foreign titles because The Sophia Naturalization Act had been forgotten - or its full impact no longer realised.

As they were British citizens from birth and also holders of foreign titles it would be hard to say that they couldn't use their foreign titles.

Since 1948 I would agree - after it was realised that these people were British citizens all along whereas the belief was that they weren't British citizens and so needed permission to legally use their foreign titles whereas they were actually British citizens all along.
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  #97  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor...However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".
Yes that is official but they are agnatic descendants of the House of Glucksberg
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  #98  
Old 12-11-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The problem with this argument is that it had been forgotten that their were foreign title holders who were also born as British citizens. It was assumed that they were actually foreigners with foreign titles rather than British citizens with foreign titles because The Sophia Naturalization Act had been forgotten - or its full impact no longer realised.

As they were British citizens from birth and also holders of foreign titles it would be hard to say that they couldn't use their foreign titles.

Since 1948 I would agree - after it was realised that these people were British citizens all along whereas the belief was that they weren't British citizens and so needed permission to legally use their foreign titles whereas they were actually British citizens all along.
Actually the issue of native born British citizens with foreign titles was specifically addressed in 1932 as I stated. It was decided that the title holders alive in 1932 could continue to hold the title but on their death their heirs could no longer use the title in the UK without a royal licence which would not be granted. The example I gave was of the family of the then dukes of Portland who were also Counts of the Holy Roman Empire. The Bentinck heirs ceased to be able to use the title of Count/Countess of the HRE in the UK.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:25 PM
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If the relevant house laws do not provide for a possibility of renouncing the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark, then the Duke of Edinburgh is still a prince of Greece and Denmark according to those laws. Even if they do, but no formal document was ever signed, then he still is. I'm inclined to believe that the Queen, the Princess Royal, the Duchess of Cornwall, the Countess of Wessex, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of York's daughters and the Earl of Wessex' daughter are all indeed princesses of Greece and Denmark, and that the Prince of Wales and his brothers are princes of Greece and Denmark according to the same rule that enables any other Greco-Danish prince to use those titles. However, it all rests on the assumption that the Duke of Edinburgh's renunciation is invalid or non-existent.

Remember: one can choose not to use a title, but it doesn't mean that the person is longer entitled to it. Empress Frederick was still a princess of the United Kingdom and the Earl of Wessex' children are still entitled to that style, though it is not used by choice.

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Originally Posted by Kataryn View Post
But just a question: when Anne Stuart was not yet queen but already the wife of George of Denmark - was she referred to as "Princess of Denmark" in Britain?
I just saw an announcement in the Gazette of that time that she and her husband indeed were referred to as TRH Prince George and Princess Anne of Denmark. In 1689 Prince George of Denmark and Norway was created Duke of Cumberland while he still held his Royal titles of Denmark and Norway. Hmm...
Yes, she was. She was always officially styled as "HRH Princess Anne of Denmark [and Norway]".

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor. On April 9, 1952, The Queen officially declared it her "Will and Pleasure that I and my children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor".

On February 8, 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Winston Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of HRH Prince/Princess.

However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".
That doesn't mean that they are not also members of the House of Oldenburg, or, more specifically, the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The Queen couldn't alter the house laws of Saxe-Cobrurg and Gotha or the house laws of S-H-S-G, could she?

There's another, partly related issue. If we assume that the Queen belongs to the same house her father belonged to, and his father, and the father of his father, up to Prince Albert - and I don't think that's disputable - then the House of Windsor is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, i.e. of the House of Wettin. Now, Prince Charles cannot possibly be a member of a house which is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and he can't possibly be a Wettin. There must be a break somewhere, at some point. Otherwise, it could be argued that even the King of Sweden and his granddaughter are Wettins, members of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?
I don't know what the Garter says.

However, it is the Danish Monarch alone who decides what title can be used (and as such are acknowledged in Denmark). When a child is born within the DRF, or someone marries into - or divorce from the DRF, it's the Monarch who decides what title they will have. And that is made public without much fanfare.
Example, when Prince Henrik had his title changed to Prince Consort, that was simply announced.

I have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.
Tronflgeloven - den danske tronflgelov af 27. marts 1953
There is no mentioning of Prince Phillip, but his renounciation must have been taken ad notam at some point in this period, from the engagement to Princess Elizabeth to 1953.

I will suggest you contact the Danish court as such a note must exist somewhere in Rigsarkivet - The Archive of the Realm.
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