Prince Philip's Former Greek Citizenship and Greek and Danish Titles

[Muhler]

In that case it would be very much an empty title.

If Prince Phillip is no longer acknowledged as Prince of Denmark in Denmark and by the DRF, then what is read at his funeral and what the Garter says is irrelevant.

Not even Princess Benedikte's children have the title of Prince/ss of Denmark, and she is after all the sister of a reigning monarch.

As far as I see it, whether Prince Phillip is allowed to call himself Prince of Denmark again is not up to QEII but QMII.

 

[branchg]

Of there is no dispute Prince Philip, Prince Charles and Prince William are members of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg though agnatic decent

All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor. On April 9, 1952, The Queen officially declared it her "Will and Pleasure that I and my children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor".

On February 8, 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Winston Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of HRH Prince/Princess.

However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".

 

[Kataryn]

If Prince Phillip is no longer acknowledged as Prince of Denmark in Denmark and by the DRF, then what is read at his funeral and what the Garter says is irrelevant.

Not sure about that as Philip is a male-line descendant while Benedikte's children are female-line. But you're right: I don't think the official declaration of the renounciation of Philip's titles were surely noticed at both the Greek and Danish Courts and it is up to QMII to decide what she makes of it.

If The British decide to honour Philip's birth as a prince of Greece and Denmark one day (hopefully long in the future) then of course they will check with the Danish Court and King Constantine about that. And if so, the Danish and Greek realtives will have a place of honour.

But I don't think we need to discuss this any further as we have next to no data on which to base our opinions apart from Muhler's long-standing knowledge of Danish courtal proceedings. So my resume is: wait and see.

 

[Muhler]

I knew I had something about this in my archive: https://www.box.com/s/32co3bt4x8apj7coua80

This is a Q&A in Billed Bladet #29, 2011.
In which the historian and DRF expert Jon Bloch Skipper answer a question about Prince Phillip.

Translation.
A Hanne Knudsen asks: I read in Billed Bladet that Prince Phillip considers himself to be Danish, why?

Jon Bloch Skipper:
Prince Phillip was born on Korfu on 10. June 1921 as son of Prince Andreas of Greece and Denmark. Prince Andrea's father was King Georg I of Greece, who was born as Prince Wilhelm of Glücksburg on Christmas Eve 1845 in the Yellow Mansion (currently the seat of the DRF administration next to Amalienborg).
Wilhelm became a Danish Prince in 1853, when his father Christian (IX) became the Danish Heir to the Throne.
Christian IX who was Prince Phillip's great-grandfather became King of Denmark in November 1863 (*) and ruled until his death in January 1906.
Phillip renounced (**) his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and his Greek citizenship when he became engaged to and later married the then Princess Elizabeth.

(*) He incidentally spoke Danish with a very heavy German accent, which was somewhat of a problem initially because of the Danish nationalism of the time, which was a part of why we had the Second Schleswigan War in 1864, which ended up with the (German) duchies of Schleswig and Holstein seceeding from DK - Or rather becoming Preussian. Christian IX thereby lost the lands in which he was born and raised and had his closest family.

(**) The keyword, which I have seen consistently is "afkald", which I cannot translate as anything but renounce.

That at least must be considered the official Danish view on the matter.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Christian IX who was Prince Phillip's great-grandfather became King of Denmark in November 1863 (*) and ruled until his death in January 1906.
Phillip renounced (**) his title of Prince of Greece and Denmark and his Greek citizenship when he became engaged to and later married the then Princess Elizabeth.

But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Even if he was a British citizen by birth that would not give him the legal right as a British citizen to use his foreign title in the UK. That would still have required a royal licence and they have not been granted since 1932. There were other natural born British citizens who held foreign titles such as Counts of the Holy Roman Empire (as with the Portlands who were Counts Bentinck) but their right to use such a title in the UK ended in 1932 or at least at the death of the holders as of in 1932.

The problem with this argument is that it had been forgotten that their were foreign title holders who were also born as British citizens. It was assumed that they were actually foreigners with foreign titles rather than British citizens with foreign titles because The Sophia Naturalization Act had been forgotten - or its full impact no longer realised.

As they were British citizens from birth and also holders of foreign titles it would be hard to say that they couldn't use their foreign titles.

Since 1948 I would agree - after it was realised that these people were British citizens all along whereas the belief was that they weren't British citizens and so needed permission to legally use their foreign titles whereas they were actually British citizens all along.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor...However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".

Yes that is official but they are agnatic descendants of the House of Glucksberg

 

[NGalitzine]

The problem with this argument is that it had been forgotten that their were foreign title holders who were also born as British citizens. It was assumed that they were actually foreigners with foreign titles rather than British citizens with foreign titles because The Sophia Naturalization Act had been forgotten - or its full impact no longer realised.

As they were British citizens from birth and also holders of foreign titles it would be hard to say that they couldn't use their foreign titles.

Since 1948 I would agree - after it was realised that these people were British citizens all along whereas the belief was that they weren't British citizens and so needed permission to legally use their foreign titles whereas they were actually British citizens all along.

Actually the issue of native born British citizens with foreign titles was specifically addressed in 1932 as I stated. It was decided that the title holders alive in 1932 could continue to hold the title but on their death their heirs could no longer use the title in the UK without a royal licence which would not be granted. The example I gave was of the family of the then dukes of Portland who were also Counts of the Holy Roman Empire. The Bentinck heirs ceased to be able to use the title of Count/Countess of the HRE in the UK.

 

[Kotroman]

If the relevant house laws do not provide for a possibility of renouncing the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark, then the Duke of Edinburgh is still a prince of Greece and Denmark according to those laws. Even if they do, but no formal document was ever signed, then he still is. I'm inclined to believe that the Queen, the Princess Royal, the Duchess of Cornwall, the Countess of Wessex, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of York's daughters and the Earl of Wessex' daughter are all indeed princesses of Greece and Denmark, and that the Prince of Wales and his brothers are princes of Greece and Denmark according to the same rule that enables any other Greco-Danish prince to use those titles. However, it all rests on the assumption that the Duke of Edinburgh's renunciation is invalid or non-existent.

Remember: one can choose not to use a title, but it doesn't mean that the person is longer entitled to it. Empress Frederick was still a princess of the United Kingdom and the Earl of Wessex' children are still entitled to that style, though it is not used by choice.

But just a question: when Anne Stuart was not yet queen but already the wife of George of Denmark - was she referred to as "Princess of Denmark" in Britain?
I just saw an announcement in the Gazette of that time that she and her husband indeed were referred to as TRH Prince George and Princess Anne of Denmark. In 1689 Prince George of Denmark and Norway was created Duke of Cumberland while he still held his Royal titles of Denmark and Norway. Hmm...

Yes, she was. She was always officially styled as "HRH Princess Anne of Denmark [and Norway]".

All of Philip's descendants are members of the House of Windsor. On April 9, 1952, The Queen officially declared it her "Will and Pleasure that I and my children shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that my descendants who marry and their descendants, shall bear the name of Windsor".

On February 8, 1960, after the death of Queen Mary and the resignation of Winston Churchill, the Queen confirmed that she and her children would continue to be known as the House and Family of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of HRH Prince/Princess.

However, The Queen decreed that her agnatic descendants who do not hold royal rank would bear the surname "Mountbatten-Windsor".

That doesn't mean that they are not also members of the House of Oldenburg, or, more specifically, the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The Queen couldn't alter the house laws of Saxe-Cobrurg and Gotha or the house laws of S-H-S-G, could she?

There's another, partly related issue. If we assume that the Queen belongs to the same house her father belonged to, and his father, and the father of his father, up to Prince Albert - and I don't think that's disputable - then the House of Windsor is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, i.e. of the House of Wettin. Now, Prince Charles cannot possibly be a member of a house which is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and he can't possibly be a Wettin. There must be a break somewhere, at some point. Otherwise, it could be argued that even the King of Sweden and his granddaughter are Wettins, members of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

 

[Muhler]

But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?

I don't know what the Garter says.

However, it is the Danish Monarch alone who decides what title can be used (and as such are acknowledged in Denmark). When a child is born within the DRF, or someone marries into - or divorce from the DRF, it's the Monarch who decides what title they will have. And that is made public without much fanfare.
Example, when Prince Henrik had his title changed to Prince Consort, that was simply announced.

I have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.
Tronflgeloven - den danske tronflgelov af 27. marts 1953
There is no mentioning of Prince Phillip, but his renounciation must have been taken ad notam at some point in this period, from the engagement to Princess Elizabeth to 1953.

I will suggest you contact the Danish court as such a note must exist somewhere in Rigsarkivet - The Archive of the Realm.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.-------

So Garter King of Arms says he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark and the Danish opinion isn't clear

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

But Garter King of Arms says he didn't renounce his Greek and Danish titles when he became engaged to Princess Elizabeth

Is Queen Margrethe the final arbiter on Danish titles and has she ever made a public declaration regarding Prince Phillip?

I admire your persistance, but the truth is that Philip renounced his titles when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.

Philip var født græsk statsborger med titlerne prins af Grækenland og Danmark. Han gav afkald på både titlerne og statsborgerskabet for at gifte sig med den daværende prinsesse Elizabeth.

Philip was born a greek citizen with the titles prince of Greece and Denmark. He renounced titles and citizenship when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.

Translation from the Danish wikipedia site on Prince Philip.
Considering that QMII wasn't a regent at the time of the renunciation of his titles, I doubt that was necessary. Whenever I've heard her talk about Prince Philip, she's called him Prince Philip or the Duke of Edinburgh - never "Prince Philip of Denmark and Greece".

Also I think it's pretty safe and sound to take it from Jon Bloch Skipper, he's a great historian, has written lots of good books about the royal family and has a huge knowledge when it comes to royals.

 

[Muhler]

have never heard about QMII saying anything about the title Prince Phillip have. That would basically have been up to Christian X or Frederik IX, depending on when Prince Phillip got married/engaged and there is also the change in the Danish Law of Succession in 1953 to consider.-------

So Garter King of Arms says he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark and the Danish opinion isn't clear

In this context, my knowledge isn't clear. I can only refer to a royal expert and a site with a very comprehensive knowledge about the DRF.

For a final answer I suggest you mail Hofmaskallatet: Kontakt - Kongehuset
E-mail: Hofmarskallatet@kongehuset.dk

Or alternatively Rigsarkivet: The Danish State Archives
Mail: mailbox@ra.sa.dk

It should be interesting to learn about their reply.

The worst possible thing that can happen is that you get no reply, right?

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Thank you Muhler and everyone for your opinions and answers. I find this subject of immense interest.

I admire your persistance, but the truth is that Philip renounced his titles when he married the then Princess Elizabeth.

With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia

House of Glücksburg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heirs to the Commonwealth realms and their ancestors

The heirs to the Commonwealth realms are descended from Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark, a paternal grandson of George I of Greece. However, by Letters Patent of 8 February 1960, Queen Elizabeth II declared that her children with Prince Philip would belong to the House of Windsor, as would any agnatic descendants who enjoy the style of Royal Highness, and the title of Prince or Princess. (Those who do not have that style and title would bear the surname Mountbatten-Windsor.
The agnatic lineage is continued from Friedrich Wilhelm, Duke of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

Christian IX of Denmark
George I of Greece
Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark
Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark[2]
Charles, Prince of Wales[2]
Prince William, Duke of Cambridge[2]

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia

Well, in this case you should trust wikipedia

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Well, in this case you should trust wikipedia

College of Arms

No thanks

Garter is responsible to the Earl Marshal for the running of the College of Arms. He is the principal adviser to the Sovereign of the United Kingdom with respect to ceremonial and heraldry, with specific responsibility for England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and, with the exception of Canada, for Commonwealth realms of which The Queen is Sovereign. He also serves as the King of Arms of the Order of the Garter and his seal and signature appear on all grants of arms made by the College.

 

[NGalitzine]

Yes but he is not responsible for the titulatur of members of the former Greek or reigning Danish royal families.

 

[PssKatie]

With all due respect but I take the opinion of Garter over Wikipedia

That's fine, but do you also take his opinion over the monarchy itself? On their website it states rather clearly that Prince Philip renounced his Danish and Greek titles.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

That's fine, but do you also take his opinion over the monarchy itself? On their website it states rather clearly that Prince Philip renounced his Danish and Greek titles.

And how did he renounce it?? There is no record at all of this so called renouncement.

Yes but he is not responsible for the titulatur of members of the former Greek or reigning Danish royal families.

And what is Queen Margrethe's opinion on Phillips status?? I haven't come across it

 

[branchg]

If the relevant house laws do not provide for a possibility of renouncing the title of Prince of Greece and Denmark, then the Duke of Edinburgh is still a prince of Greece and Denmark according to those laws. Even if they do, but no formal document was ever signed, then he still is. I'm inclined to believe that the Queen, the Princess Royal, the Duchess of Cornwall, the Countess of Wessex, the Duchess of Cambridge, the Duke of York's daughters and the Earl of Wessex' daughter are all indeed princesses of Greece and Denmark, and that the Prince of Wales and his brothers are princes of Greece and Denmark according to the same rule that enables any other Greco-Danish prince to use those titles. However, it all rests on the assumption that the Duke of Edinburgh's renunciation is invalid or non-existent.

Remember: one can choose not to use a title, but it doesn't mean that the person is longer entitled to it. Empress Frederick was still a princess of the United Kingdom and the Earl of Wessex' children are still entitled to that style, though it is not used by choice.

That doesn't mean that they are not also members of the House of Oldenburg, or, more specifically, the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg. The Queen couldn't alter the house laws of Saxe-Cobrurg and Gotha or the house laws of S-H-S-G, could she?

There's another, partly related issue. If we assume that the Queen belongs to the same house her father belonged to, and his father, and the father of his father, up to Prince Albert - and I don't think that's disputable - then the House of Windsor is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, i.e. of the House of Wettin. Now, Prince Charles cannot possibly be a member of a house which is a branch of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and he can't possibly be a Wettin. There must be a break somewhere, at some point. Otherwise, it could be argued that even the King of Sweden and his granddaughter are Wettins, members of the House of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.

I think we have to remember the Greek Royal House, including Philip, spent most of their life in-exile. George II had only recently been restored to the throne when Philip asked for Elizabeth's hand in marriage.

There was a lot of hostility at the time from the British press and the Royal Household that Elizabeth was marrying a "foreigner", even though Philip spent most of his teenage years in Britain and had served in the Royal Navy during World War II. In order to address these issues, it was important that Philip be seen as "British" and not "Greek".

In line with that, he was naturalized to British citizenship as the first step in the process, which included renouncing his right of succession to the throne in Greece, something that was documented and noted in Hugo Vickers' biography of Philip's mother. He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England.

There is no question that his descendants are not considered to be part of the House of Glucksburg or the Greek Royal House as Philip obviously was marrying a future Sovereign. He was created a Duke of the Realm and Charles and Anne were born HRH Prince/Princess of the UK, something they normally would not have been entitled to as female-line descendants of The Sovereign, by Letters Patent of George VI. At that point, they took their rank and style not from their father, but from the will of The Sovereign.

Elizabeth is technically a monarch of the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha as a direct male-line descendant of Prince Albert. As we know, her grandfather declared the name of the royal house to be "Windsor" after World War I to distance himself from his German blood.

Technically, Charles will be the first monarch of the House of Glucksburg, et. all, but by declaration of The Sovereign, the name of the royal house remains Windsor. Of course, Charles could change this once he is on the throne, but I think it's more likely the name would become "Mountbatten-Windsor" to honour his father.

 

[AdmirerUS]

Your posts in this thread AMAZE me. You all are clearly enchanted by the topic and dance like angels on the head of a pin trying to determine the correct interpretations for styles and titles. I always read along and I am always captivated by the debate.

Sometime, I imagine Queen EII or her dear Philip reading the Forums and I wonder what they think about all our speculation. For all we know they could be members trying to guide opinion on matters - or they could be stirring the pot. Or, they could lurk, silently. The idea makes me smile.

 

[NGalitzine]

And what is Queen Margrethe's opinion on Phillips status?? I haven't come across it

Why would she express any opinion at all since the matter was settled when she was a child and herself not even heiress to the throne. By the time she came to the throne in 1972 Philip had long been established as HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

@branchg He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England. ===== And the source of this is what?

Why would she express any opinion at all since the matter was settled when she was a child and herself not even heiress to the throne. By the time she came to the throne in 1972 Philip had long been established as HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh.

Again the source please. Garter says he was HRH Duke of Edinburgh AND a Prince of Greece and Denmark

 

[AuroraB]

By letters patent of Nov. 19, 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947, LCO 6/3559).

Garter states clearly he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark

I don't believe that Garter knows for a fact that Prince Philip is still a Prince of Greece and Denmark because of the way he starts his sentence with "I believe". Garter is stating a belief not substantial proof.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?

 

[branchg]

@branchg He also voluntarily relinquished his royal title to become Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and converted to the Church of England. ===== And the source of this is what?

Like I said, it's all right there in black and white in Vickers' biography of Princess Andrew of Greece, Philip's mother. He interviewed Philip extensively for the book and had full access to the Royal Archives and the Mountbatten Family Archives.

I don't know why you have such a difficult time accepting this. Isn't it logical that Philip would renounce his Greek titles (which actually meant little to him considering the history of the throne in Greece) and convert from Greek Orthodoxy to marry the future Queen?

 

[NGalitzine]

With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?

Why should Garter be considered an expert opinion on matters that concern the Greek and Danish royal families? And why are you trying to foist foreign titles on a man who apparently believes he willingly gave up his foreign titles to become a British commoner and then a British HRH and peer and then a British prince? He seems to have quite enough titles and honours for a lifetime.

 

[branchg]

With all due respect are people saying they known more on this topic than Garter?

Keep in mind the Garter of Arms is not the Lord Chancellor or a constitutional expert either. He was responding to a question from the House of Lords as to Philip's status of HRH and whether that meant he was also a Prince of the UK.

 

[NGalitzine]

Again the source please. Garter says he was HRH Duke of Edinburgh AND a Prince of Greece and Denmark

What source are you looking for, that QMII was a small child when Philip married Elizabeth in 1947 or that she herself did not become heiress to the Danish throne until the changes made in 1953? Under what circumstances can you imagine QMII claiming Philip as a Danish Prince, especially since he is not even in the line of succession to the Danish throne?

 

[branchg]

And why are you trying to foist foreign titles on a man who apparently believes he willingly gave up his foreign titles to become a British commoner and then a British HRH and peer and then a British prince? He seems to have quite enough titles and honours for a lifetime.

Yes, in fact, in Vickers biography of Philip's mother, it states Philip didn't care about the 1957 Letters Patent creating him a Prince of the UK in his own right. It was Lord Mountbatten who kept moaning and groaning about it. Philip was perfectly content to be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.