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  #61  
Old 12-10-2012, 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
And this is the opinion of the Royal Family, expressed via the British Monarchy's official website: "Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark in Corfu in 1921, but renounced his Royal title when he became a naturalised British subject in 1947, adopting his maternal grandfather’s surname of Mountbatten."
Surely the BRF can provide evidence of his renunciation, with documents and papers. A verbal declaration doesn't mean a thing

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Originally Posted by Artemisia View Post
Where is the proof he didn't?
Are you serious? Garter can't find any evidence but you're saying it exists

Heraldica

TRF pride its selves on providing links to back up their claims and yet no one has done so except to say Philip did renounce his titles.

I provided many links from top sources and the best people can say are my sources are wrong.

Most people believe Prince Philip did not renounce either his succession rights or his princely titles. They believe that since there isn't any documentary proof showing Prince Philip renounced his titles or his rights these events did not occur. Their argument rests on the fact that no one has been able to cite the text of the renunciation, the date it was executed, the date it became effective, or even the clause in the House laws of the Royal House of Greece permitting a Prince to renounce. (Prince Philip is the only Greek prince who is ever said to have renounced his rights and his titles.) They view it as a case in which Prince Philip simply stopped using his Greek and Danish titles and that he never formally relinquished them. (Foreign rules and regulation such as British Home Office naturalization procedures did not have any effect on Prince Philip's title or his style of HRH as a Prince of Greece. As such, those who put forth these arguments say that he, his children and male-line grandchildren are Princes/Princesses of Greece and Denmark, in addition to any other titles they may hold.

Heraldica

Prince Philip was a British subject before he became naturalized in 1947. In fact, he had been from birth because of the Sophia Naturalization Act . This Act, passed in 1705, gave in perpetuity the right of British citizenship to Sophia's non-Catholic descendants. At the time of Prince Philip's naturalization in February 1947, no one seemed aware that this procedure was unnecessary, not even his uncle Lord Louis Mountbatten who "worked diligently towards the granting of Philip's British citizenship" (Prince Philip: A Biography, by Denis Judd, London: Michael Joseph Ltd., 1980). This fact was discovered only after the legal victory of his cousin, Prince Ernst August of Hanover, in which he won his right to British citizenship. In 1956, HRH Prince Ernst August of Hanover (1914-1987) sought and won his battle to claim the status of British citizen because of the Sophia Naturalization Act. Prince Ernst August's claim to this right was based on the fact that he was a lineal descendant of the Electress Sophia and a Protestant.

Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark is a British subject under the Sophia Naturalization Act 1705 and didn't have to renounce any titles. He was both a Prince of Greece and Denmark and a British subject, If Philip didn't have British citizenship than you would be correct but he was both a citizen and also a Prince of Greece and Denmark.

(Foreign rules and regulation such as British Home Office naturalization procedures did not have any effect on Prince Philip's title or his style of HRH as a Prince of Greece and Denmark as he is a British subject
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  #62  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Surely the BRF can provide evidence of his renunciation, with documents and papers. A verbal declaration doesn't mean a thing
A verbal declaration from the official website of the British Monarchy is, to me, worth slightly more than similar verbal declarations from Heraldica or Garter King of Arms who say that Philip might not have renounced his foreign styles and titles.

When the same official website made announcement of the Duchess of Cambridge's pregnancy, I don't remember anyone requiring proof it is real, unless you have links to evidence I am not aware of such as ultrasounds or pregnancy tests.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Are you serious? Garter can't find any evidence but you're saying it exists
Very serious,thank you for asking. I am not stating Prince Philip officially renounced his foreign styles and titles. However, you demand proof of the renunciation, I ask proof that it wasn't made. Seems to be pretty fair to me.

You back your claim with quotes from Heraldica and Garter King of Arms who say that Prince Philip might not have done so officially (not providing any proof to back that claim either, mind you), I back my opinion by quotes from the official website of the British Monarchy.
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  #63  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:54 AM
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I am not a learned man but it seems to me is that if someone, anyone can't provide evidence of Phillips renunciation , then he didn't renounce it. Garter doesn't have to prove anything. There is zero evidence or documentation Philip renounce his titles

Unless he verbally did , in which case it isn't legal anyway.
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  #64  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:03 AM
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You forget one thing: things like that are not usually made public because there is no need to. The only case where a proof of renunciation would be necessary is when/if any of Prince Philip's male-line descendants makes a claim to be styled as Prince/Princess of Greece and Denmark as well. Then, the proof would be provided if it exists, and if it doesn't, then the claims of said descendants would be satisfied. Other then that, the British Royal Family is not in habit of sharing any aspect of their lives unless they absolutely have to.

Clearly, we have different opinions on the matter; I respect yours and thank for provided the highly interesting links from Heraldica and Garter King of Arms.
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  #65  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:18 AM
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Artemisia I value your opinion on certain matters but in this particular case, you are out of your depth. To Disagree with the Garter King of Arms, Chief Herald for England and Wales is one thing (although very full of yourself), but then to provide no documentation to cite the text of the renunciation, the date it was executed, the date it became effective, or even the clause in the House laws of the Royal House of Greece permitting a Prince to renounce his titles, No Prince of Greece has ever renounced his titles, is not creditable at all.
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  #66  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:28 AM
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The problem is that he was a British citizen from birth and so the law regarding holding foreign titles and being a British citizen didn't apply to him as he is a descendent of Sophia and like the Kaiser was a British citizen and a holder of foreign titles.

Even the present Queen of Denmark is a British citizen under the Sophia Naturalisation Act - born before the change in the law that limited that right and she definitely holds a foreign title. Her sisters equally are also British citizens although their children aren't. Another British citizen who also has held (and still uses foreign titles) is King Constantine of Greece and his wife - both born before 1948 and so British citizens as well as citizens of other countries and holders of titles in other countries.
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  #67  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Artemisia I value your opinion on certain matters but in this particular case, you are out of your depth. To Disagree with the Garter King of Arms, Chief Herald for England and Wales is one thing (although very full of yourself), but then to provide no documentation to cite the text of the renunciation, the date it was executed, the date it became effective, or even the clause in the House laws of the Royal House of Greece permitting a Prince to renounce his titles, is not creditable at all.
Thank you for valuing my opinion in certain matters.

I do not disagree with Garter King of Arms. According to him, there is no proof the renunciation happened so it might have been a verbal, non-binding one. I agree with that. On the other hand, there is no evidence that it didn't happen so, since the official website of the British Monarchy states so, it probably did.

Why should any details of the renunciation, if it did take place, be released when there is no need for it? The British, Danish and Greek Royal Families do not contest it, Prince Philip's children or male-line descendants do not contest it, legal experts do not contest it - so why on Earth should the Royal Family release any details on a non-existing issue?

Again, we very clearly have different opinions.
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  #68  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The problem is that he was a British citizen from birth and so the law regarding holding foreign titles and being a British citizen didn't apply to him as he is a descendent of Sophia and like the Kaiser was a British citizen and a holder of foreign titles.

Even the present Queen of Denmark is a British citizen under the Sophia Naturalisation Act - born before the change in the law that limited that right and she definitely holds a foreign title. Her sisters equally are also British citizens although their children aren't. Another British citizen who also has held (and still uses foreign titles) is King Constantine of Greece and his wife - both born before 1948 and so British citizens as well as citizens of other countries and holders of titles in other countries.
The case of Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover did indeed clearly establish that those Protestant descendants of Sophia, Electress of Hanover, who were born prior to 1948 (when the British Nationality Act was passed) were automatically British citizens from birth. The British Nationality Act 1948 did repeal the statute for those born after 1948 so while Queen Margrethe II of Denmark is indeed de jure a British citizen (and may acquire a de facto citizenship at any time unless laws of Denmark prohibit it), her sons or other descendants - born after 1948 - can no longer have a similar claim.

I wonder why didn't anybody advise Lord Mountbatten about this loophole when he so laboriously worked to gain Prince Philip a British citizenship. Although I suppose the court precedent hadn't been established yet.
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  #69  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:53 AM
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What degree of cousins are William and Frederick?
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  #70  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:02 AM
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What degree of cousins are William and Frederick?
Their closest common ancestor was Christian IX of Denmark, making them 4th cousins through Prince Philip and Queen Margrethe, and 4th cousins once removed through Queen Elizabeth and Queen Margrethe.

Through Queen Victoria, they are double 5th cousins (through Prince Philip and Queen Margrethe and through Queen Elizabeth and Queen Margrethe).
Through Nicholas I of Russia, they are 5th cousins once removed.

Other degrees of relations exist as well but these are, to the best of my knowledge, the closest.
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  #71  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:26 AM
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A member asked me about some details in regards to Prince Phillip's status in connection to the DRF - sorry if this is irrelevant to the current discussion but here we go.

If Prince Phillip still holds the titel of Prince of Denmark, then he is considered a member of the extended family of the DRF with all that entails.
But as Denmark does not acknowledge dual citizenship, he cannot be issued a Danish (diplomatic) passport, nor does he have the rights the members of the DRF have as Danish citizens, like the right to vote and so on.

Had Prince Phillip been Prince to Denmark, he would have been in the line of succession. However, he would not have been able to function as Rigsforstander (regent), as he is not a Danish citizen.

Unless I'm mistaken Prince Phillip no longer holds the title of Prince of Denmark and as such he now has the status of a foreign Prince Consort in Danish eyes.

There is no such thing as the 548th in line to the throne in Denmark. Only acknowleded heirs are in the line of succession.
Should all current heirs die, it will be up to the Danish Parliament to choose a new monarch.
It is extremely unlikely but not completely out of the question that Prince Harry could be asked to become king of Denmark. In that case he would have to renounce his British citizenship and become a Danish citizen and he is required to convert as he must be a lutheran as well.
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  #72  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:33 AM
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So if Philip didn't give up his Greek and Danish styles and titles, he is a Prince of Denmark?
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  #73  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
So if Philip didn't give up his Greek and Danish styles and titles, he is a Prince of Denmark?
Yes - and a, albeit distant, member of the DRF. - On the condition of course that Denmark acknowledge his title.

ADDED:
I wasn't sure about Prince Phillip's titles, so I did a quck search: http://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prins_P...g_af_Edinburgh
According to the Danish version of Wikipedia, Prince Phillip gave up both titles as Prince of Denmark - and Greece and also his Greek citizenship upon marrying the then Princess Elizabeth.

So he is a foreign Prince Consort when he deals with the DRF.
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  #74  
Old 12-10-2012, 06:48 AM
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Many experts disagree Muhler

I just don't understand why Sir ALGAR HOWARD, K.C.V.O., C.B., M.C Garter Principal King of Arms, Chief Herald of England and Wales says the Duke is a Prince of Greece and Denmark
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Thanks for your opinion Muhler
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  #75  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:19 AM
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Well, whether Prince Phillip gave up his title as Prince of Denmark verbally or signed a document appears to be of no concern here in DK.

The Danish viewpoint, judging from what I have been able to find doing a quick search, is consistently that Prince Phillip is no longer acknowledged Prince of Denmark in Danish eyes.

There is even a short biography here, with the headline: Once he was Prince of Denmark: Engang var han prins af Danmark | Nordjyske.dk

This comprehensive site lists the members of the DRF (in red): LUNDSKOV.DK :: Royalt . Kongehuset

The children of the Greek ex-king Konstantin is listed, Prince Phillip is not on the list.

So the conclusion must be, as I see it, whatever Prince Phillip did when he married QEII, he is de facto no longer considered a member of the DRF.
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  #76  
Old 12-10-2012, 07:36 AM
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The following relations of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh may be members of the extended Greek and Danish royal families. However, unlike members of the Greek and Norwegian branches, Prince Philip, as the senior dynast of this branch, renounced (upon taking British citizenship) his right to succeed to the Greek throne, discontinuing (not renouncing)use of his title Prince of Denmark (as well as Prince of Greece), and assuming the surname "Mountbatten". Nonetheless, all are members of the House of Oldenburg or The House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg by agnatic descent or marriage:
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  #77  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 AM
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The issue Garter was referring to in his letter was whether Philip had automatically become a Prince of the UK with the granting of the style of HRH. George VI intended to grant Philip equal rank, which he felt was sufficient since he created his son-in-law a Duke, and indeed, Philip was often referred to as Prince Philip even before the 1957 Letters Patent.

Garter was not pronouncing that Philip remained a Prince of Greece & Denmark. He was simply stating his opinion that it would not be incorrect to address Philip as a Prince since he was born one in Greece. The Sovereign is the fount of honours and did not, in fact, recognize Philip as a Prince, but as a Royal Duke.
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  #78  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:05 AM
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I don't see how that can be right. Neither of Princess Anne's husbands became a prince upon marrying her.
You are right, I am wrong. At least I admit it.
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  #79  
Old 12-10-2012, 09:38 AM
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As Muhler stated, the Danish parliament in case of need could look at Philip's descendants in search of a new king or queen, but as neither of these descendants have any need to be recognized as Danish citizens there is no sense in using the titles they probably have inherited from him.

I am sure when British Royals (who are all descended from Alexandra of Denmark and thus relations) meet Queen Margrethe or members of her family, they will treat each other like family - just like the Royal families have always done when a princess left her home country and married into another Royal family.

But just a question: when Anne Stuart was not yet queen but already the wife of George of Denmark - was she referred to as "Princess of Denmark" in Britain?
I just saw an announcement in the Gazette of that time that she and her husband indeed were referred to as TRH Prince George and Princess Anne of Denmark. In 1689 Prince George of Denmark and Norway was created Duke of Cumberland while he still held his Royal titles of Denmark and Norway. Hmm...
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
The issue Garter was referring to in his letter was whether Philip had automatically become a Prince of the UK with the granting of the style of HRH... Garter was not pronouncing that Philip remained a Prince of Greece & Denmark.
By letters patent of Nov. 19, 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947, LCO 6/3559).

Garter states clearly he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark

- - - - - - - - - -

Discontinuing use of and not renouncing his Danish titles is interesting
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