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  #261  
Old 03-07-2014, 08:15 AM
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Here is the smoking gun.
HO 45/15677
Quote:
With reference to the application of .........
for the grant of a certificate of naturalization, I am directed by the Secretary of State to say that he thinks it right to point out that,

[With reference to your letter of the ........., I am directed by the Secretary of State to say that it is open to ............to apply for the grant of a certificate of naturalization in accordance with the enclosed instructions.

The Secretary of State thinks it right to point out that,]

if your client becomes a British subject, his (her) foreign title will not receive official recognition in this country and that in accordance with the established practice it will be omitted from the certificate, if granted. I am to request that [, if an application is lodged,] your client, or you on his (her) behalf, will specifically acknowledge his (her) acceptance of this position.

This explains everything. Philip did not have to renounce his titles. Assuming he was subject to the same procedure as any other titled foreigner, he was merely informed that his titles had no official recognition in the UK, and had to specifically acknowledge that he accepted that lack of official recognition.

That is neither renunciation nor abandonment. Indeed, his titles remained intact outside the UK. as it turned out, 10 years later it was found that he was in fact already a British subject, so his naturalization was irrelevant, as was any acknowledgement he made as part of that.
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  #262  
Old 03-07-2014, 08:28 AM
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HRH Prince Philip of Greece, the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, & Denmark, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, Baron Greenwich - a short bio.

10 June 1921 - HRH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark is born on the Greek island of Corfu to HRH Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark (formerly Princess Alice of Battenberg). He is a nephew of HM King Constantine of Greece, and is 7th in line to the Greek throne. Through his mother, Prince Philip is a great-great-grandchild of Queen Victoria of the United Kingdom, and therefore a descendant of Princess Sophia, Electress of Hanover. His father is HRH Prince Andrew of Greece and Denmark. As a Greek prince, Philip is styled as His Royal Highness; this takes precedence over his style of His Highness as a Prince of Denmark. In Denmark only children of the Sovereign and children of the heir apparent are styled HRH; Philip is neither. However, his is 15th in line to the Danish throne.

4 December 1922 Prince Andrew and his family are banished from Greece, and are evacuated by the British cruiser HMS Calypso. The family became dispersed, with Prince Philip's father in France, mother in Switzerland, and elder sisters in Germany. Prince Philip is brought up in Britain by his Battenberg relatives, who have adopted the surname Mountbatten.

27 July 1932 King George V revokes the Royal Warrants that had allowed the use of foreign dignitaries and titles by British subjects.

16 July 1942 Prince Philip is commissioned as a Lieutenant in the Royal Navy .

28 February 1947 It is noted in the London Gazette that Prince Philip is naturalized as a British subject; as is standard procedure for the naturalization of a title foreigner, he is by law informed that his foreign title will not receive official recognition, and is asked specifically to acknowledge his acceptance of this. He therefore becomes within the United Kingdom a commoner, namely Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten R.N., taking his adoptive family's surname.

9 July 1947 The engagement of Lieutenant Mountbatten and HRH The Princess Elizabeth is announced with Royal consent.

19 November 1947 Lieutenant Mountbatten is created a Knight Companion of the Most Noble Order of the Garter by King George VI and granted the style His Royal Highness. He is therefore within the United Kingdom now HRH Sir Philip Mountbatten, K.G.

20 November 1947 Sir Philip is made the Duke of Edinburgh, before marrying Princess Elizabeth that same day; he is now HRH The Duke of Edinburgh. He is also granted some lesser British titles; Earl of Merioneth & Baron Greenwich. This being an Anglican marriage, he is no longer Greek Orthodox and is therefore excluded from the Hellenic succession.

19 December 1947 As there is some confusion as to the fact that the Duke of Edinburgh is styled His Royal Highness but lacks the royal dignity of Prince, the Garter Principal King of Arms sends a letter to the Lord Chancellor's office stating that "There is I think a general idea that the Duke by virtue of his H.R.H. has become a Prince of the United Kingdom, but in fact I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here."

27 March 1953 The Danish Act of Succession restricts heirs to descendants of King Christian X, removing the Duke of Edinburgh from the line of succession.

5 December 1956 An Appellate Committee of the House of Lords passes judgement that the Sophia Naturalization Act 1705 grants British nationality to all descendants of Princess Sophia, Electress of Hanover; this affects over 400 people across Europe, including members of every Royal House bar one. The successful applicant is HRH Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover. The Duke of Edinburgh is one of those affected; his previous naturalization is moot, as he was from birth already a British subject, and he is entitled to all his royal titles in their relevant jurisdictions.

8 December 1974 After returning to democracy, Greece votes to abolish the monarchy and become a republic, confirming the results of previously illegal referenda that had been organized by the military junta that overthrew the monarchy in December 1967.

12 October 2001 in the Danish Folketing confirms that descendants of King George I of Greece (grandfather of the Duke of Edinburgh) are titled Prince of Greece and Denmark, and as they are descendants of King Christian IX of Denmark they are eligible for Danish passports.

Conclusion

Prince Philip has been from birth entitled:
HRH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark; being
HRH Prince Philip of Greece, and
HH Prince Philip of Denmark

However, these titles have had no official recognition within the United Kingdom since 27 April 1932. The Greek monarchy was abolished by referendum on 8 December 1974, so Greek royals are only acknowledged in Greece by their lesser Danish titles, which remain valid. Since his marriage he has also been entitled to the following titles, the only ones with which he has recognition in the United Kingdom:

HRH The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, Baron Greenwich
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  #263  
Old 03-07-2014, 09:46 AM
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Well, according to your logic, Phillip is still Prince of Greece, which the Greeks probably won't agree with...

But, would you please explain why Phillip has never been referred to officially, or unofficially for that matter, as Prince of Denmark in Denmark since his mariage to QEII?
He is not even listed anywhere in Denmark as Prince of Denmark.

And if his foreign titles, in accordance with British legislation, are not acknowledged if he is a British citizen, then he can't use them anyway.
You just created a Catch 22.
As you yourself pointed out on 28 February 1947 he became a British subject, subject to British law and costums. Why should Denmark and Greece continue to style a foreign citizen, who in his new homeland is now known as Lieutenant Mountbatten, as prince?

Apart from that, don't you think it would more than plausible the Phillip prior to marrying QEII went to the Danish and Greek monarchs and explained the situation? British citizen, no acknowledgement of foreign titles, won't be using the title again and is that a problem? Probably not I'd say. Merely a formailty as this situation must have occured before.

It still boils down to this: If you don't use a title, you lose it.

This is a fine intellectual discussion but on a realistic level this seems puzzling to me. Akin to discussing how many angels can stand on a pinhead.
Phillip will not be prince of neither Denmark nor Greece again. That's out, in the past. Gone.
British costums and legislation does not trumph costums and legislation in neither Greece nor Denmark.
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  #264  
Old 03-08-2014, 05:12 AM
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What I have established is that contrary to popular belief, on the evidence currently available to us, Philip's Danish and Greek titles were not renounced by his superfluous naturalization in 1947, and the Garter King of Arms was correct in his opinion that:
Quote:
he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark
.

What is in question is this: Have there been any legislative events that occurred in Denmark since 1947 that specifically deprived Philip of his princely Danish & Greek titles?

Alternatively, is there established in Danish customs and tradition a precedent by which royal titles are deprived simply by their lack of use? If so, what is the precedent?
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  #265  
Old 03-08-2014, 06:23 AM
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I agree that Prince Philip would not need to resort to his Danish/Greek princely title again. After all, he is 92, and all 16 Commonwealth Realms are not likely to become republics in his lifetime.

He doesn't use the titles to because he doesn't need to. He is the consort of the world most powerful royal, Queen Elizabeth II, who exercises sovereignty over 16 Commonwealth Realms, and a benign suzerainty over 37 other states as Head of the Commonwealth.

As the consort of the sovereign of 134 million subjects, and the suzerain of 2.1 billion others, what does being an obscure prince to a relatively few Danes matter?

It would be interesting to know if Prince Philip traveled in a private capacity outside British jurisdiction in 1947 after his naturalization but prior to his wedding. If so, was it as Lieutenant Mountbatten, or as HRH Prince Philip of Denmark and Greece?
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  #266  
Old 03-08-2014, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge View Post
What I have established is that contrary to popular belief, on the evidence currently available to us, Philip's Danish and Greek titles were not renounced by his superfluous naturalization in 1947, and the Garter King of Arms was correct in his opinion that: .
And I refer to the Danish royal expert, Jon Bloch Skipper, whose reply you can read here. What the Garter at Arms say may apply to Britain but not Denmark and Greece.

Prince Philip's former Greek Citizenship and Greek and Danish Titles

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge View Post
What is in question is this: Have there been any legislative events that occurred in Denmark since 1947 that specifically deprived Philip of his princely Danish & Greek titles?
Not that I know of. Wouldn't be necessary anyway because:
A: Phillip had already renounced his title.
B: The Danish Constitution states clearly that it is the Monarch who decides who should be granted or stripped of titles. - The Parliament need not legislate on the matter and the government can only advise.
(Phillip is not covered by the Danish Law of Succession, since he is not a Danish citizen and he was only Prince of Denmark anyway).
QMII can in theory strip all members of the DRF of their royal status tomorrow should she wish to. With the sole exeption of the Crown Prince, his status cannot be changed. - British legislation or not, it's the Danish Monarch who has the final word.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge View Post
Alternatively, is there established in Danish customs and tradition a precedent by which royal titles are deprived simply by their lack of use? If so, what is the precedent?
That I can't answer off hand. I can however refer to Queen Alexandra who was in a similar situation as Phillip.

Now, you asked me a couple of questions, now I'll ask you a couple of questions.

A) Do you honestly believe Phillip is still Prince of the republic of Greece? If so, how can you be prince of a republic?

B) Do you believe Phillip is still Prince of Denmark?

C) If so by what right? Through his Greek line? But there is no longer a Greek royal family. They have been abolished along with their titles. At least in regards to the Greeks and that's what matters, doesn't it?

D) Through his Danish line? That's up to Queen Margrethe to decide. The Constitution says so. What makes you think she (or for that matter the Danes) will accept a British citizen in the DRF with all that entails? After 65 years.
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  #267  
Old 03-08-2014, 07:42 AM
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Jon Bloch Skipper's statement, without the evidence to back it up, is merely opinion. Where is the actual evidence that Philip renounced his title? I cannot find any that does not fall into the category of hearsay. Having said that, I am so willing to stand corrected should the evidence be forthcoming. I understand you know the gentleman, and would be very interested to hear his opinion, given what I have uncovered about the naturalization process as I have mentioned previously.

Agreed that Philip is not covered by the Danish Law of Succession, He is merely an agnate, not a dynast. However, that is due to him not being a descendant of Christian X, not his citizenship. Before the law changed on 27 March 1953, he was in the line of succession. While not a Danish citizen, As a descendant of King Christian IX, Philip is certainly entitled to a Danish passport should he request one.

When British monarchs strip people of their titles, as has happened in the past, there is documentary evidence. One would assume the same with the Danish monarchy.

I will have a look at the Queen Alexandra situation and get back to you. Thanks for alerting me to that potential precedent.

To answer your questions to me.

A) Prince Philip's title as a Prince of Greece ceased to be substantive on 8 December 1974, however, like other members of the Greek Royal Family, it remains as a Danish courtesy title. Note that the Danish Minister for Justice styled the former Greek king as HM King Constantine II in his reply to the Folketing in 2001.

B) Without clear evidence that Prince Philip either actually renounced his title, or was deprived of it, I can only conclude that he is still a Prince of Denmark.

C) By right of his royal descent:
1. HM King Christian IX of Denmark
2. HM King George I of Greece
3. HRH Prince Andrew of Greece & Denmark
4. HRH Prince Philip of Greece & Denmark

D) Yes, as above. Again as a descendant of King Christian IX, he is entitled to a Danish passport, should he request one.
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  #268  
Old 03-08-2014, 08:06 AM
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[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]Jon Bloch Skipper's statement, without the evidence to back it up, is merely opinion. Where is the actual evidence that Philip renounced his title? I cannot find any that does not fall into the category of hearsay. Having said that, I am so willing to stand corrected should the evidence be forthcoming. I understand you know the gentleman, and would be very interested to hear his opinion, given what I have uncovered about the naturalization process as I have mentioned previously.[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]

I guess a third party will have to write the Danish court and ask and publish the reply here.

[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]Agreed that Philip is not covered by the Danish Law of Succession, He is merely an agnate, not a dynast. However, that is due to him not being a descendant of Christian X, not his citizenship. Before the law changed on 27 March 1953, he was in the line of succession. While not a Danish citizen, As a descendant of King Christian IX, Philip is certainly entitled to a Danish passport should he request one.[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]
Unless he renounced his title. As a British citizen he is not entitled to a Danish passport. DK does not yet recognise dual citizenship. He can only get such a diplomatic passport if he is considered a member of the DRF and he is not listed anywhere as such.

[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]When British monarchs strip people of their titles, as has happened in the past, there is documentary evidence. One would assume the same with the Danish monarchy.[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]

Presumably. I'll refer to the Danish court or more correctly Rigsarkivet (the National Archive).

[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]I will have a look at the Queen Alexandra situation and get back to you. Thanks for alerting me to that potential precedent.

To answer your questions to me.

A) Prince Philip's title as a Prince of Greece ceased to be substantive on 8 December 1974, however, like other members of the Greek Royal Family, it remains as a Danish courtesy title. Note that the Danish Minister for Justice styled the former Greek king as HM King Constantine II in his reply to the Folketing in 2001.[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]
Correct, because the stance of the DRF (in particular QMII) is: once a Majesty always a Majesty. It's not a right and it's not acknowledged in Greece. - So no Prince of the republic of Greece.

[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]B) Without clear evidence that Prince Philip either actually renounced his title, or was deprived of it, I can only conclude that he is still a Prince of Denmark.

C) By right of his royal descent:
1. HM King Christian IX of Denmark
2. HM King George I of Greece
3. HRH Prince Andrew of Greece & Denmark
4. HRH Prince Philip of Greece & Denmark[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]

Only if he did not renounce his title and only if the Danish Monarch says so. You are free to renounce any titles you want, but you do not have a right to a royal title in DK. That's for Her Majesty to decide.

[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]D) Yes, as above. Again as a descendant of King Christian IX, he is entitled to a Danish passport, should he request one.[QUOTE=Nudge;1646968]

No, only if you are a Danish citizen. A diplomatic passport however is a priviledge, not a right. They are issued by the Foreign Ministry rather than through the Ministry of Justice.
Granting diplomatic passports to the Greek royals were shall we say stretching things a bit, and basically only because Her Majesty wished so.
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  #269  
Old 03-08-2014, 09:15 AM
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I am not suggesting dual citizenship, I am merely saying he has a right to a Danish passport, in the unlikely event he finds himself stateless, as Constantine II did.

The whole point is that as in the absence of clear evidence before us to show that Philip renounced his Greek/Danish titles, or any evidence that these titles have ever been revoked, we must conclude that he remains substantively a Prince of Denmark, with the courtesy title of Prince of Greece, despite the fact that he does not use these titles.
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  #270  
Old 03-08-2014, 03:17 PM
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Indeed, Nudge, indeed.
This is very much a theoretical discussion as that eventuallity occuring is virtually nil.

But we can at least agree on disagreening, eh?
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  #271  
Old 03-22-2014, 05:54 PM
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From the book Prince Philip by Philip Eade:

Philip, meanwhile, by his own account, 'wasn't madly in favour [of taking the name Mountbatten]...but in the end I was persuaded, and anyway I couldn't think of a reasonable alternative'.
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  #272  
Old 03-22-2014, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nudge View Post
I am not suggesting dual citizenship, I am merely saying he has a right to a Danish passport, in the unlikely event he finds himself stateless, as Constantine II did. s.
As I'm sure you know the law os succession to the Danish Throne was changed in 1953. In fact more changes to the Danish Constitution were made that year one of which happens to be the Danish nationality law.
I should clearify that the original text uses the term 'indfødsret' which does not translate easily to english. It means to be eligible for Danish citizenship.
The law states that have Danish 'indfødsret'/ to be eligible for Danish citizenship at least one parent have to be a Danish citizen. I am not sure that was the case for Prince Philip.
The law also states that the 'indfødsret' will be forfeited if:
a) if a person voluntarily acquires nationality of another country (whether after application or by entering the public service of another country)
b) if a person acquired Danish nationality by birth, but was not born in Denmark and has never lived in Denmark by the age of 22 years.

Prince Philip's Danish 'indfødsret' would be lost on both accounts. So no - in the unlikely event that PP finds himself stateles he has no right to a Danish passport. Maybe QMII could pull a few strings should that ever happen.
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