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  #241  
Old 08-05-2013, 05:02 PM
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The naturalisation was gazetted - as happened to everyone who took out citizenship - and that was really all that happened.

I have said it before but my mother was working at the British High Commission in Canberra during the late 40s and early 50s and the official line that she was told to tell enquirers was that he was still a Prince of Greece and Denmark and still in the line of accession to the Greek throne in the lead up to the wedding, coronation and 1954 tour of Australia and she has a number of documents etc that she was given as a farewell gift that have that same information.
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  #242  
Old 08-05-2013, 05:32 PM
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There is a difference between items appearing in the Gazette or CC for that matter and, as Homme suggested, "shouting it from the rooftops". Minimum but necessary publication and nothing proactive, with agreed statements if enquiries are made.

Standard process of dealing with situations that could escalate in a negative way.
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  #243  
Old 08-05-2013, 05:41 PM
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That is exactly why I said it was gazetted - to shout it from the rooftops would have made it front page headlines etc - it was announced but no differently to anyone else at the time.

They didn't want to make a song and dance about it - just did it and moved on.
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  #244  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post

He didn't lose his place in the line of succession to the Greek throne by giving up his Greek titles so that line doesn't fly.
He did. He gave ug to all his rights to the greek throne when marryinp Pcs Elisabeth
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  #245  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by fandesacs2003 View Post
He did. He gave ug to all his rights to the greek throne when marryinp Pcs Elisabeth

Not according to the British - who were telling their offices around the world, as late as 1954, to my certain knowledge that he was still in the line of succession to the Greek throne and only lost his right to the Danish throne in 1953 with the changes in law there.
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  #246  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:39 PM
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Why is this important?
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  #247  
Old 08-05-2013, 06:40 PM
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(Prince Philip is the only Greek prince who is ever said to have renounced his rights and his titles.
Others point out that even if Prince Philip renounced his rights of succession to the Greek throne
No, he is not the only one. Pcs Michael of Greece, only son of Pcs Christopher, and grandson of King George I, has renounce to his rights when married the commoner Marina Carella
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  #248  
Old 08-05-2013, 08:40 PM
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A British citizen can not use a foreign title without a Royal Licence. It is possible that the Duke of Edinbough still technically has the right to his Danish and Greek title, but since he is British he can not legally use it. So when he was naturalized he became LT Mountbatten. I suppose he could have asked for Royal Licence to use his Greek title but none have been granted since 1932.
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  #249  
Old 08-08-2013, 06:47 PM
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Royal Musings: British titles, etc: the rules ARE Hard and Fast

"In 1947, Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark went through the naturalization process before his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. He renounced his Greek and Danish titles, and his place in the Greek succession, and adopted the surname Mountbatten. This naturalization was not necessary because Philip was born with British nationality as a descendant of the Electress Sophia of Hanover. This was due to the Sophia Naturalization Act (1705), which gave British nationality in perpetuity to Sophia's descendants. The act was superseded in 1949 by the passage of the British Nationality Act, but there are descendants of Sophia who are eligible for nationality under the SNA.

Prince Philip actually began the process of renouncing his Greek and Danish titles in 1941, three years after joining the Royal Navy. This was done in a private letter to King George II, then in exile, in December 1941. The king accepted the renouncement "reluctantly," due to Philip's desire to serve in the Royal Navy. There was never an action taken by the Greek government after George II returned, but the decision was accepted by the Greek king. It became moot by 1947, due to the Nationalization process, when Philip was required to renounce his foreign titles. George VI created Philip as HRH Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, & Baron Greenwich on the day of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. Although the media and others continued to refer to Philip as Prince Philip, he had lost his princely title at the time of the naturalization (or in 1941, when he wrote to King George II.) He became a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1957.

The information about the action in 1941 was confirmed to me by the Duke of Edinburgh's office, again, in the mid-1990s.
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  #250  
Old 08-10-2013, 07:08 PM
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I've seen a similar discussion on a different forum some years ago, and ... if my memory serves me right .. we agreed at the time that when you renounce your royal title and the nationality that goes with you relinquish your succcessions rights as well! Maybe the latter involves a separate action like the signing of a document, but that's beyond the point.
IMO Prince Philip lost the his Greek succession rights at the time of his naturalization - regardless of the prospects of the Greek monarchy in 1947, and his Danish succession rights - if any! - went out the window at the same time. However so far I haven't found any proof that he ever was in the Danish line of succession!

Yet some of you insist that he was and that he kept his Danish succession rights until the change of the succession law in 1953. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt until further .... however it doesn't make sense if he was!
Living far away from Danish archives and the like I'm not really able to check the subject thoroughly. I could probably ask one of the RF historians, but he/she would probably find it a nerdy question ... !

IMO many tend to focus too much on the '- of Denmark' style of the Greek RF. Again: It was a safety measure, a legal technicality insisted upon by King Christian IX back in 1863 when Prince Vilhelm/William was headhunted for the rocky Greek throne by the Great powers. He would probably have been fully reinstated in the Danish line of succcession had the Greek experiment failed and his children would have been included as well. That was what his father wanted! However I fail to see the point of including Villy's descendants during his kingship and beyond!
The 'of Denmark ' style underlined the connection with the Danish RF and entitled Villy to repatriation if things went wrong in Greece, as Christian IX feared they would. Eventually it didn't happen until some time after George's/Villy's death. That's why members of the Greek RF have been issued with Danish (nowadays: diplomatic) passports over the past 90 years, Prince Philip probably included! - but as far as I know these passport never implied full citizen rights, and why they would have included succession rights to the Danish throne is beyond me!


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  #251  
Old 01-29-2014, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
The naturalisation was gazetted - as happened to everyone who took out citizenship - and that was really all that happened.

I have said it before but my mother was working at the British High Commission in Canberra during the late 40s and early 50s and the official line that she was told to tell enquirers was that he was still a Prince of Greece and Denmark and still in the line of accession to the Greek throne in the lead up to the wedding, coronation and 1954 tour of Australia and she has a number of documents etc that she was given as a farewell gift that have that same information.
The Greek Constitution at the time , just like every Constitution until the abolition of the monarchy, stated very clearly that only members of the Eastern Orthodox church were eligible for the throne. So Philip lost his right to claim the throne automatically when he joined the Church of England even if there was no other arrangement made. Titles are of course a different matter , more complex
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  #252  
Old 03-06-2014, 03:35 AM
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Hi all.

I have been following this debate and have found something that interesting that may add to it. I think people maybe looking in the wrong place for evidence. I have used the National Library of Australia's "Trove" resource to search the papers of the day for answers to this. The Australian newspapers of 20 March 1947 quote The Times as saying this:

Quote:
"The Times," commenting on the naturalization, says that a foreigner, on being granted British naturalization, abandons any title he may have.
So it would appear that Philip did not renounce his titles, but merely abandoned them. As it has been legally established that he was not a foreigner at the time, his naturalization would be null and void, as would the abandonment of his titles as part of the process.

So logically it follows that unless Philip has actually specifically renounced his titles after the "Attorney-General vs. HRH Prince Ernest Augustus of Hanover [1957] 1 All ER 49" case, he remains to this day a Prince of Greece & Denmark.

Papers at first talk about his abandonment of titles through naturalization and his renunciation of Greek succession rights as separate issues, but soon in the lead-up to his marriage begin to say he renounced his titles and succession. I attribute this to journalistic/editorial laziness rather than the result of any specific action.

This is one of the searches I performed to get this result:

Search results for 'philip mountbatten greece naturalized' - Digitised newspapers and more - Trove

Could someone with access to The Times please search to find the original article?
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  #253  
Old 03-06-2014, 03:37 AM
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True. Prince Katherine didn't have to renounce hers, the king allowed her to be styled as lady brandham and gave her precedence after all HRH in England. Outside of the uk, she was still till the day she died HRH princess of Greece and Denmark
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  #254  
Old 03-06-2014, 05:33 AM
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A long debate, that's for sure, but we continue to go back to square one.

Prince Phillip was prince of Denmark, not to Denmark, so he was not in the Line of Succession.

If you abandon/give up a title or whatever you want to call it, you lose the right to use it. You can't come back many decades later and reclaim your title.

Any title that is not acknowledged in the countries in question is hollow.
Greece is a republic. Prince Phillip of Greece would not be a HH or HRH, but simply Mr. Phillip Windsor.
In Denmark he has not been listed as a member of the DRF since his marriage to QEII. - If he wants to be Phillip of Denmark again, he will have to ask QMII.
Otherwise it will not be acknowledged.

Even the Greek ex-king is considered an ordinary citizen in Greece now, so the chances of Greece accepting a prince Phillip of Greece is hopeless.

Nor can you pass on a title which you have abandoned to your children. So the PoW and his brothers are not and cannot be princes of Denmark either.
Unless Queen Margrethe give her approval. And I cannot imagine she would "adopt" foreign royals into the DRF.
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  #255  
Old 03-06-2014, 05:58 AM
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Also, I searched the British naturalization acts applicable in 1947, and I couldn't find anything to suggest that foreign titles are lost. So where does that come from? The only thing I have found on this is George V's letters patent, and that deals specifically with German titles only, and applied only to descendants of Queen Victoria.
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  #256  
Old 03-06-2014, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Nudge View Post
Also, I searched the British naturalization acts applicable in 1947, and I couldn't find anything to suggest that foreign titles are lost. So where does that come from? The only thing I have found on this is George V's letters patent, and that deals specifically with German titles only, and applied only to descendants of Queen Victoria.
Presumably an established costum that you give up foreign citizenship and titles upon marrying into the BRF. (Probably a good idea too)!

Anyway, in the present world I fail to see the relevance of that act. Unless British legislation and costums takes precedence over Danish and Greek legislation.
Greece is still a republic and he isn't listed as a member of the (extended) DRF.
If the Duke wish to use his former titles he will have to seek approval of the Greek Parliament and QMII, otherwise his titles will not be accepted outside his own home, regardless of British legislation.
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  #257  
Old 03-06-2014, 06:17 AM
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From the Wikipedia page on the Danish Royal Family:

Quote:
Most of the members of the deposed Royal Family of Greece hold the title of Prince or Princess of Greece and Denmark with the qualification of His or Her Highness, pursuant to the Royal Cabinet Order of 1774 and as agnatic descendants of George I of Greece, who, as the son of the future King Christian IX of Denmark, was (and remained) a "Prince of Denmark" prior to his accession to the throne of Greece in 1863. Until 1953 his dynastic male-line descendants remained in Denmark's order succession. However, no Danish act has revoked usage of the princely title for these descendants, neither for those living in 1953, nor for those born subsequently or who have since married into the dynasty.
I also note that The International Olympic Committee still recognizes the deposed Greek King Constantine II as a royal.

Loss of sovereignty does not necessarily mean loss of recognition.
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  #258  
Old 03-06-2014, 06:23 AM
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It would appear that the (former) Royal Greek Family remain Danish & Greek princes, as recognised by Denmark. This is a google translation of a question asked of the Danish Minister of Justice in the Danish Parliament:

Quote:
Q. No S 3937

The Minister of Justice (11/9 01) by:

Anne Baastrup (SF) :

"Could the Minister confirm that (King ) Constantine has a Danish passport , and if so , how did he get it ? '

Reason

See that Constantine is not a Danish citizen and that his wife has waived the right to be heir to the throne , why Constantine nor a member of the Danish royal family .

Reply ( 19/9 01)

The Minister of Justice ( Jensen ) :

The Ministry of Justice for the purpose of answering the question asked the Foreign Ministry for an opinion .

When this advice is available , I will return to this matter .

Supplementary answer (12/ 10 01 )

The Minister of Justice ( Jensen ) :

The Ministry of Justice for use in responding obtained a statement from the Foreign Ministry .

According to the opinion , the Foreign Ministry with the basis of the Instructions for Foreign Service has complied with a request to issue diplomatic passports to His Majesty King Constantine , as members of the Greek royal family in the from King Christian IX and Queen Louise descended line , ie . descendants of King George I ( born Prince William of Denmark ) takes the title Prince , respectively Princess of Greece and Denmark .
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  #259  
Old 03-06-2014, 07:21 AM
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So it would seem that Denmark recognizes all agnatic descendants of King Christian IX to be titled Prince or Princess of Denmark, other than those who are the issue of unapproved morganatic marriages. On the evidence I have seen here, that would include Prince Philip and his descendants.

Abandoning the use of a title is not the same as renunciation. For example, in my home state of Queensland I am 'His Honour Joseph Bloggs, J.P.'; however when I have been a resident of other jurisdictions I am merely 'Mr. Joe Bloggs'. I no longer use the title, but I have not renounced it.
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  #260  
Old 03-06-2014, 08:03 AM
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You fail to see the point, Nudge.

Phillip gave up the use of his Greek and Danish titles. The Greek ex-royals didn't.
Apart from that there is also a considerable difference between Greek relatives who are the children and husband of the sister of the Danish Monarch, and Phillip who a distant relative of the Danish Monarch.

I asked the Danish royalty expert Jon Bloch Skipper some time back (his reply is mentioned in this thread) that Phillip gave up his Danish titles upon marrying QEII.
You can't come back some 65 years later and say you changed your mind.

It's akin to this example: Let's say there is a Prince of Scotland title in the BRF and has been for 200 years, inherited from father to son. Say it's Prince Edward.
Okay, Scotland opts to be independent and QMII is no longer the Scottish monarch. Fine, out of respect of the Scottish decision Edward stops using his title as Prince of Scotland.
25 years later he changes his mind and want's to call himself Prince of Scotland again, because he never really signed a paper and it's sort of blurry and many explanations...
How do you think the Scottish would react? - "Prince who?!? We've been a republic for 25 years and have every intention of remaining so"!
Unless that title is acknowledged by Scotland, Edward can shout: "I'm Prince of Scotland" until his face turns blue, it won't make a difference.
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