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  #201  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
So as far as you know, did the Danes and or the Greeks pressure Philip to renounce his titles and if they did can you provide some sort of supporting documentation
When I have some free time , perhaps even during this weekend, Ill try to find some documentation about what really happened, starting which Markezinis ' books and mamoirs. But personally I am conviced that all the parties involved paid attention to the validity of Philip's action. To tell the truth I can't rule out the possibility to eventually discover that Philip distanced himself from his titles without formally abolishing them, although from the clues I have until now I don't think this is higly possible. But honestly, I am certain that, at least about his descendants, no one took the matter lightly and he had to make very clear, precise and legally binding declarations to all Royal Houses involved
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  #202  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:37 PM
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This is my opinion on this matter. Phillip simply stopped using the titles and got on with his British life. I don't think he renounced anything (for the simple reason I can't find the paperwork to indicate he did)

Why BP told the British High Commissioners in 1954 that both Charles and Phillip are Princes of Denmark, is somewhat baffling because of all people they should know the Prince Consort's style and status.Unless he was a Prince of Denmark in 1954. Obviously we are not getting the entire story
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  #203  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
This is my opinion on this matter. Phillip simply stopped using the titles and got on with his British life. I don't think he renounced anything (for the simple reason I can't find the paperwork to indicate he did)
Like I said, I can't rule it out until I study this more. But really, do you think that even if he just unceremonially dropped his titles that the Kings involved would not pressure him to make a definite decision about his descendants with Elizabeth? I doubt that they would let him be vague about whether of not he could trasfer any succesion rights or titles to his children, like I said it was not a matter to be taken lightly.
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  #204  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:06 PM
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I have a question that's likely more easily answered than the one that's being discussed, haha. I was reading Prince Philip's Titles & Styles page on Wikipedia today, and it has him listed as:

Quote:
19 November 1947 – 20 November 1947: His Royal Highness Sir Philip Mountbatten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_of_Edinburgh

My question is, upon being created HRH would one automatically be able to use the style of Sir, or was there another honour Philip received the day before his wedding? Or is Wikipedia wrong?

Thanks in advance!
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  #205  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:15 PM
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Wikipedia article is not in error; "Sir" was indeed Prince Philip's title for one day, before he was created The Duke of Edinburgh.

However, "Sir" was not associated with his style of Royal Highness, but rather with the fact that he had been made Knight of the Order of Garter on the same day. Knights Companion automatically have the right to prefix "Sir" to their name (and Ladies Companion- "Lady"), hence the Sir Philip Mountbatten. Subsequently, the grant of Letters Patent that created the Dukedom of Edinburgh a day later was to Sir Philip Mountbatten KG.

Had Philip not been made Knight of the Order of Garter, his title after he renounced his foreign titles and styles and before he became the Duke of Edinburgh (that is, after 18 March 1947 and before 20 November 1947) would have remained simply Lieutenant Philip Mountbatten.
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  #206  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:18 PM
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Oh, OK. That absolutely makes sense! Thanks so much for the speedy answer, Artemisia! :)
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  #207  
Old 12-13-2012, 05:14 PM
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All of these countries were just coming out of WWII. Do you think Greece or Denmark cared what he did as long as they were closely tied to a Major Allied Power? Neither country was concerned what he had to do, or not do, to get in the door.
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  #208  
Old 12-15-2012, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
^^^^
Probably because since WWI the BRF have gone out of their way to distance themselves from their continental relations. Post WWII this was even more important since Elizabeth was going to marry a man whose sisters had all married Germans who served in the German armed forces. It was important that she be seen marrying a man who was as British as possible. Therefore have him go through the naturalization process, become a British commoner as Lt Philip Mountbatten and adopt the Anglican faith, and renounce what ever foreign names and titles he may have had prior to that. After that make him a British HRH and peer, and later a British prince. Being a foreigner with foreign titles was neither desirable or acceptable in 1947 in a UK still suffering from the damages of WWII.
This makes a lot of sense to me, so soon after the war.
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  #209  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:53 AM
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By letters patent of Nov. 19, 1947 Lt Sir Philip Mountbatten was granted the style of Royal Highness, and he was created Duke of Edinburgh the following day. He was in the anomalous position of being a Royal Highness but not a Prince, although the normal association of the two styles led to some confusion on the matter. Garter stated that "I believe he remains a Prince of Greece and Denmark though naturalized here." (Garter, 19 Dec 1947, LCO 6/3559). Letters patent of Oct. 22, 1948 granted the style of Royal Highness to the children of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. In the text, he is styled "His Royal Highness Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh". In the Regency Act 1953, and in the birth registration of Princess Anne, he is styled "His Royal Highness Philip, Duke of Edinburgh". At the time of the birth of Princess Anne, the General Register Office consulted the Home Office on the proper style that he should receive, and they proposed "His Royal Highness Prince Philip"; but George VI amended himself the proposed entry and replaced it with "His Royal Highness Philip, Duke of Edinburgh" (see the letter from H. Austin Strutt, 28 Feb 1955, LCO 6/3677).

Garter Principal King of Arms, The General Register Office and the Home Office and the Hon. Sir Albert Napier KCB. House of Lords all are the opinion he is a Prince of Greece and Denmark after 1947.
Adding to all of this is Iluvbertie's document from BP dated 1954, in which both Prince Philip and Prince Charles are referred to as Princes of Greece and Denmark.

Most believe Prince Philip did not renounce either his succession rights or his princely titles. They believe that since there isn't any documentary proof showing Prince Philip renounced his titles or his rights these events did not occur. Their argument rests on the fact that no one has been able to cite the text of the renunciation, the date it was executed, the date it became effective, or even the clause in the House laws of the Royal House of Greece permitting a Prince to renounce. (Prince Philip is the only Greek prince who is ever said to have renounced his rights and his titles.)

They view it as a case in which Prince Philip simply stopped using his Greek and Danish titles and that he never formally relinquished them. (Foreign rules and regulation such as British Home Office naturalization procedures did not have any effect on Prince Philip's title or his style of HRH as a Prince of Greece.

Heraldica
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  #210  
Old 01-11-2013, 10:02 AM
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Translation of Q&A in Billed Bladet #2, 2013,

Where a Svend Pallesen asks whether Prince Phillip is still Prince of Denmark.

Jon Bloch Skipper replies:
Phillip, who was born as Prince of Greece and Denmark, renounced all his titles when he became a British citizen prior to the engagement and marriage to Princess Elizabeth in 1947.
At the same occasion he took the name Mountbatten after his mother's family and converted from the Greek Orthodox faith to the Anglican church.
Prince Phillip is the great-grandchild of Christian IX, who was King of Denmark 1863-1906.
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  #211  
Old 01-11-2013, 08:26 PM
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^^^^ That's the evidence the Duke renounced his titles in 1947, because Jon Bloch Skipper says he did.
In the Letters patent of Oct. 22, 1948 granting the style of Royal Highness to the children of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. In the text, he is styled "His Royal Highness Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh

The fact is there is no document of renunciation, and there is no getting around this fact as my comment above states.
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  #212  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:13 PM
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Just an odd thought and perhaps its been brought up before.

Is it possible that Philip is no longer recognized as being a Prince of Greece and Denmark in the UK because its such that the UK does not formally recognize foreign titles? It could very well be that if (for example) the monarchy was restored in Greece, Philip would be recognized still as a Prince of Greece and Denmark there?

Kind of like with most women that marry. The (for the most part) formally and legally take the surnames of their husbands but they are nee maidensurname. They don't stop being a part of their parental families but the maiden name is no longer used.

Philip will always remain a Prince of Greece and Denmark but in the UK, he only uses the titles and styles pertinent to the UK.
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  #213  
Old 01-11-2013, 09:22 PM
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The evidence is contradictory e.g. The Queen issued LPs creating him a Prince of the UK in 1957 but the 1948 LPs do refer to him as Prince Philip - LPs issued by the King of the UK who surely would know whether or not he had renounced his Greek and Danish titles and therefore was no longer a Prince of these countries.

Now if he had renounced those titles and had ceased to be a Prince of Greece and Denmark why did George VI issue LPs in 1948 referring to him as Prince Philip? Of what was he a Prince -if Greece and Denmark then he hadn't officially renounced those titles but simply stopped using them however if of the UK why did QEII need to issue LPs creating him a Prince of the UK in 1957?

The more you look into this fact the more it seems likely that he never actually renounced anything but simply, with the agreement of the Kings of Greece and Denmark, stopped using the style of Prince of Greece and Denmark and preferred to use the British name and style of Philip Mountbatten.
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  #214  
Old 01-11-2013, 11:01 PM
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George VI saw fit to personally cross out the word Prince in front of Philips name for the registration of Prince Charles birth. The father of both Charles and Anne on their birth registration is HRH Philip Duke of Edinburgh. in the 1954 Regency act he is also HRH Philip Duke of Edinburgh.
"Home Office,
Whitehall. S.W.1.
28 February, 1955.

My dear George,

We were speaking the other day about the designation of the Duke of Edinburgh.

In 1948 the General Register Office consulted us about the way in which the birth of Prince Charles was to be registered. They sent over a suggested entry, in column 4 of which (name and surname of father) they had inserted:
"His Royal Highness Prince Philip".

I consulted Lascelles on this and he laid my letter before The King, together with the draft entry, I have in my possession the entry, as amended by The King in his own hand. The King amended column 4, name and surname of father, to read:
"His Royal Highness Philip, Duke of Edinburgh".

Should you or the Lord Chancellor wish to see the actual document I will, of course, send it over. But I keep it locked up in my safe and am not going to have it registered until nearer the time of my retirement as I think it is somewhat delicate to have lying about in a file at the present time.

Your truly,

Austin Strutt

George Coldstream, Esq., C.B,"
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  #215  
Old 01-12-2013, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
...He renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne on February 28, 1947 and became a British subject, taking the name Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and relinquishing his title as a Prince of Greece & Denmark...
Maybe it was a simp,e PERSONAL choice that was WORDED wrong like HRH Princess Katherine of Greece & Denmark, WHO CHOSE after marriage to not be known by her royal titles , BUT they were until her death STILL HERS.
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  #216  
Old 01-12-2013, 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
^^^^ That's the evidence the Duke renounced his titles in 1947, because Jon Bloch Skipper says he did.
In the Letters patent of Oct. 22, 1948 granting the style of Royal Highness to the children of his marriage to Princess Elizabeth. In the text, he is styled "His Royal Highness Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh

The fact is there is no document of renunciation, and there is no getting around this fact as my comment above states.
But you are looking in the wrong places! You're assuming that the documents would be held by the British, but rather they would be held by the Greeks. Prince Philip himself has given information to royal historians that he wrote to King George II of Greece in 1943 (? question mark is mine since relying on memory and not sure if '42, '43) to tell him he was planning on renouncing his place in the Greek line of succession. This letter went to King George II and is either in the Greek archives or misplaced due to the displacement of war and exile.

Your other sticking point is that Philip was already a British subject thanks to the Sophia Naturalisation Act. BUT, and this is a big but, until the mid 1950s no-one knew about the Sophia Naturalisation Act! It was one of those historical details that was buried in the mist of time. In the early 1950s Prince Ernst August of Hanover (the father of the current Ernest August) used his law degree to delved into the 1701 Act of Settlement and discovered the Sophia Naturalisation Act. He then went to the British courts to claim his British citizenship. In 1956 he managed to establish in the British courts the right of all non-catholic descendants of the Electress Sophia of Hanover to British citizenship. (By doing this those descendants whose lands (including his) had been confiscated by the communists could claim compensation as British subjects. This information comes from Marlene Eilers book, Queen Victoria's Descendants) Philip applied and was granted British citizenship in 1947 since no-one at the time knew he was already a British subject. This also cancels out the argument 'but he was already a British subject and still a Greek prince'.

Philip wanted to become a British citizen because he wanted a career in the British navy, not because he was to marry Princess Elizabeth. Reference here the excellent book by Hugo Vickers Princess Andrew of Greece. In it there is a letter dated December 1939 Alice writes to Philip to ask him to not apply for British citizenship (she obviously didn't know about the Sophia Naturalisation Act either!) as his cousin Peter (Prince Peter of Greece) had married a divorcee and was out of the Greek line of succession and Philip was the youngest Greek prince in the list. "But Freddy is pregnant again" (Freddy was Crown Princess Frederika and she duly gave birth to a son the following June) By now the war was raging and all British Naturalisations were put on hold, Philip wrote to George II to advise him that he planned on becoming naturalised.

At the war's end Philip's uncle Lord Mountbatten wrote to Anthony Eden about Philip taking out British citizenship. (an extract of this letter is in the Vickers book, original in Avon archive) George II and Princess Alice also wrote to King George VI about Philip taking out British citizenship (Also in Vickers book) None of them seemed to have known about the Sophia Naturalisation Act either!

Philip returned to the UK in January 1946 (he had been in the Far East) and he was asked again to wait before he renounced his place in the Greek line of succession, this time by King George II. George II insisted that he would not return to Greece until there was a referendum as to whether the monarchy should be restored. Philip needed to wait since it wouldn't look to good if the royals themselves were planning on leaving! The referendum was held in September 1946, the monarchy was reinstated George II returned to Greece in December and in February 1947, Philip became a British subject, giving up his Greek Titles since a British citizen can not hold a foreign title. So 9 years after he originally broached the idea of becoming naturalised, he finally became a British subject.

The paperwork involved was correspondence between the relevant parties, which may or maynot exist in private archives. Vickers had access to the Broadlands archives, the KP archives (Philip's grandmother's papers including his letters are in those archives) these are not online or necessarily open to anyone other than scholars or authors writing official biographies (such as Vickers)

Philip dealt with King George II, he had no communication with the Danish King Christian X in regards to renouncing his place in the Danish line of succession. Whether he was in it or not, someone who is better informed on the Danish succession laws than I would know. Regardless by 1953 the Danish succession was changed and only the descendants of Christian X were to be in the line of succession so Philip was out.

Once Philip became a British subject in 1947 he was no longer Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark. Just like Prince Michael of Kent once he married a catholic was no longer in the line of succession, Michael didn't renounce anything he was just off the list. Philip becoming a British subject in British records just ceased being Prince etc, etc. There was no need for paperwork, like Michael of Kent, it just happened. Philip through his correspondence with George II seemed to have made some formal request. BUT this would be in Greek archives and not the British so full circle, you were looking in the wrong place for the information you wanted.
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  #217  
Old 01-22-2013, 02:56 AM
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HRH still holds his Greek Orders, has anyone seen pics oh him wearing them the last time he did?
ETA.. Well I found 1. On the day of his wedding he wore the Star of the Order of the Redeemer below that of the Garter!! Go Sir !
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  #218  
Old 01-23-2013, 05:27 PM
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In this picture from 1963, I think he may be wearing the stars of the Order of the Redeemer and another Greek order (possibly either the Order of George I or the Order of Saints George and Constantine). I don't think he's had an occasion to wear them since then, since there have been no more state visits by a Greek head of state.
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  #219  
Old 01-25-2013, 07:13 AM
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Yeah great pic. It's the st George & st. Constantine with Swords., he was given this as well as the Collar in 1941
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  #220  
Old 01-25-2013, 08:33 AM
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In this picture from 1963, I think he may be wearing the stars of the Order of the Redeemer and another Greek order (possibly either the Order of George I or the Order of Saints George and Constantine). I don't think he's had an occasion to wear them since then, since there have been no more state visits by a Greek head of state.
That's a wonderful photo and one I've never seen before!
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