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  #181  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:53 PM
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It appears we have reached the time to stop feeding the trolls.
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  #182  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
Phillip is a Danish Prince. He was born a Prince of Greece and Denmark and there is no written record he gave up his titles. He may have decided to stop using them but that doesn't mean he isn't legally still a holder of these titles.
I really do not understand your reasoning here. He renounced his right of succession to the Greek throne on February 28, 1947 and became a British subject, taking the name Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN, and relinquishing his title as a Prince of Greece & Denmark. That definitively ended his membership in the Royal House of Greece and his rights to be a Prince of Denmark.

All of this was undertaken in order to marry The Princess Elizabeth as a British subject, not a foreign royal. His children would inevitably become members of the House of Windsor and their rank and style would flow from their mother as The Sovereign.

There is no reason to assert he or his agnatic descendants remain Prince/Princess of Denmark when they are British royals!
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  #183  
Old 12-12-2012, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
It appears we have reached the time to stop feeding the trolls.
I agree and this whole argument is ridiculous at this point.
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  #184  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NGalitzine View Post
It appears we have reached the time to stop feeding the trolls.
Troll? At least this'troll' provides links and documentation and doesn't proclaim their opinion as fact

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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
I agree and this whole argument is ridiculous at this point.
Troll? At least this'troll' provides links and documentation and doesn't proclaim their opinion as fact
Double for you. Your comments are nothing more than this is my opimion so of course it is fact
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  #185  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:14 PM
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Everyone has provided you with extensive information to consider, including quotes from biographies, the Royal Family's website, Danish references, etc. More importantly, Philip chose to renounce his rights and membership in the Royal House of Greece to marry the future Queen and voluntarily relinquished his former titles.

He's been a British Duke and Royal Prince for over sixty years and there is no rationale to your points.
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  #186  
Old 12-12-2012, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by branchg View Post
Everyone has provided you with extensive information to consider, including quotes from biographies, the Royal Family's website, Danish references, etc. More importantly, Philip chose to renounce his rights and membership in the Royal House of Greece to marry the future Queen and voluntarily relinquished his former titles.

He's been a British Duke and Royal Prince for over sixty years and there is no rationale to your points.
This was in 1947 right?
Because its odd then that the Palace was referring to both Phillip and Charles as Princes of Denmark in 1954 (After his marriage to the Queen)

Because according iluvbertie BP clearly told the British High Commission in 1947 and again in 1952 that he and, in 1953, Charles were in the line of succession to the Danish throne as male line descendents of George I of the Hellenes who didn't ever renounce his claim to that throne but moved himself below that of his younger brother.

In 1954 the information from BP listed both Philip and Charles as still being Princes of Denmark.

I have the copies of the documents that were given to employees working at the High Commission at the time - headed from Buckingham Palace with the wording 'by instructions from HM The King/Queen this is the information to be given to the public if asked'..... The document is numerous pages long and doesn't only concern Philip, but Elizabeth, George VI and The Queen Mum, lines of succession, Charles and Anne (1953 and 1954) Margaret, Queen Mary along with information on how to greet them, how to be involved in a discussion with them etc etc.

I have a lot of confidence in the British Royal Family knowing the status of members of their own family and that they would also not be putting out incorrect information.

That the line of succession to the Danish throne changed in 1953 is irrelevant to whether Philip was ever in that line - that change took him out simply because it denied the right of succession to all the descendents of Christian IX's younger sons and limited to only his eldest son's heirs (like denying the right of inheritance to the British throne to Anne, Andrew and Edward's children and limiting to only Charles'). Until then, the Danes wouldn't even allow a woman to inherit so they took the opportunity to change both the line of succession and open the succession to women.
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  #187  
Old 12-12-2012, 10:14 PM
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I have no idea, but again, it makes no sense that Philip would be a Prince of Denmark when it was a simply a style demonstrating the Greek Royal House's line of descent from the House of Glucksburg and was relinquished by him.

In 1952, he was HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and nothing else applied.
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  #188  
Old 12-13-2012, 03:20 AM
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This is just going in circles now. Clearly someone needs to call up The Duke of Edinburgh and ask him! And why exactly is this so important?
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  #189  
Old 12-13-2012, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
So you agree he was a Prince of Denmark but can't provide any information on when he ceased to hold this title? In that case he obviously still holds his Greek and Danish titles

The Danes need to update their information
That's a pretty arrogant dismissal.

This is not a discussion, it's an obsessesion. You are not looking for information, you are looking for anything to back up your opinion and ignoring everything else.

As far as I am concerned this discussion ends here, it's just a waste of my time.
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  #190  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
When was Phillip's Greek and Danish titles not acknowledged or recognized?
Actually, when they were acknowlegded? They certainly weren't on his marriage certificate and not during the wedding ceremony. AFAIK they were never mentioned on the Britich Court Circular. They were also never mentioned on the Greek Court Circular, unlike in the case of King Paul's sister Katherine who also became a British upon her marriage and was naturalized as Katherine Brandram, without any of her former titles attached to her name - King George IV gave her the status of a Duke's daughter (like he made his son in law Duke of Edinburgh) and Katherine was " Lady Katherine Brandram" in Gr Britain and " HRH Princess Aikaterini" in the Greek Court Circular. Her First cousin Philip was always revered to as Duke of Endinburgh on the same Court Circular - that must indicate something, most likely Philip's decision not to be considered a Prince of the Greek Dynasty. And I don't think that during any State Visit between Britain and Denmark the Danish Sovereign made any mention about Philip being a Prince of her Realm - our Danish memners might know more about the official speeches during these State Visits. So I would really like to know one person, Greek or Danish, who considered him a Prince after 1947
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  #191  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:50 PM
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Iluvbertie provided this

BP clearly told the British High Commission in 1947 and again in 1952 that he and, in 1953, Charles were in the line of succession to the Danish throne as male line descendents of George I of the Hellenes who didn't ever renounce his claim to that throne but moved himself below that of his younger brother.

In 1954 the information from BP listed both Philip and Charles as still being Princes of Denmark.
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  #192  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:57 PM
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Iluvbertie provided a British point of view, and I don't question that what he said did happen - but as I said I 'd like to see a Greek or Danish source aknowledging him as a Prince of those two Realms, because , let's face it , their opinion on this subject does matter
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  #193  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by snowflower View Post
Iluvbertie provided a British point of view, and I don't question that what he said did happen - but as I said I 'd like to see a Greek or Danish source aknowledging him as a Prince of those two Realms, because , let's face it , their opinion on this subjectdoes matter
I have no Danish or Greek sources but from what people on this thread have been telling me , Philip had to renounce his titles to marry Elisabeth. I can't see the Greeks or Danes caring whether he renounced a title that was his from birth. It appears more a domestic British matter. Was there pressure from the Greeks or Danes for Philip to renounce his titles

Edit: He obviously didn't have to renounce his Greek and Danish titles to marry Elizabeth because in 1954 Buckingham Palace was still referring to him as a Prince of Denmark.
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  #194  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:19 PM
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BTW when Princess Marina , The Duke's first cousin married the Duke of Kent in the 1930s, she was a" Princess of Greece " not " a Princess of Greece and of Denmark". I'd like the opinion of people here about this, because after Muhler posts on this thread IMO this is pointing the real status of that generation with the danish titles of their ancestors
Link: http://watermarked.heritage-images.com/1218770.jpg I know it is kind of hard to read , but Marina's title is quite clear here. I found it today and I'll try to discover a bigger image later
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  #195  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:28 PM
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I can't really read the picture, but from birth Marina was Her Royal Highness Princess Marina of Greece and Denmark.
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  #196  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:39 PM
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It says Princess of Greece, but it's true that Princess Marina was a Princess of Greece and Denmark from birth (just like her father, Prince Nicholas was).

On another note, that picture is very fascinating. I wish it was larger so it was possible to see all signatures clearly. I love Queen Maud of Norway's signature, so neat. Is it Christian X of Denmark and Queen Alexandrine's signatures right over George and Maud's? Thank you for posting the picture snowflower
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  #197  
Old 12-13-2012, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Duke-of-Earl View Post
I can't see the Greeks or Danes caring whether he renounced a title that was his from birth.
Well IMO both the GRF and the DRF cared about it. It's not logical to state that Christian X and Frederik IX didn't care about the exact number of their succesors. Or that George II of the Hellenes didn't care about whether Philip, who had contracted a equal marriage (big sine qua non back then for being a member of the Royal House) could trasfer his titles to his descendants and if these descendants could claim a historic title of his house. These were important matters among royalty back then when Philip mariied Elizabeth , especially since we talk about two actual monarchies and not just two former Houses carrying their historical traditions
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  #198  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:02 PM
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So as far as you know, did the Danes and or the Greeks pressure Philip to renounce his titles and if they did can you provide some sort of supporting documentation

Question: Don't most if not all male descendants claim their father's title and House? Why would it be unusual for Phillips descendants to do this
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  #199  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:20 PM
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^^^^
Probably because since WWI the BRF have gone out of their way to distance themselves from their continental relations. Post WWII this was even more important since Elizabeth was going to marry a man whose sisters had all married Germans who served in the German armed forces. It was important that she be seen marrying a man who was as British as possible. Therefore have him go through the naturalization process, become a British commoner as Lt Philip Mountbatten and adopt the Anglican faith, and renounce what ever foreign names and titles he may have had prior to that. After that make him a British HRH and peer, and later a British prince. Being a foreigner with foreign titles was neither desirable or acceptable in 1947 in a UK still suffering from the damages of WWII.
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  #200  
Old 12-13-2012, 02:25 PM
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As of now I am dying to hear the official response from the Danish Court. I am really interested what they say about this subject.
Interesting thing is the following quote from the English Version of Wikipedia under the section: Titles, Styles and Arms of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh
Quote:
Philip has held a number of titles throughout his life. Originally holding the title and style of a prince of Greece and Denmark, Philip abandoned these royal titles before his marriage, and was thereafter created a British duke, among other noble titles. It was not, however, until the Queen issued Letters Patent in 1957 that Philip was again titled as a prince.
If you look at this link they state Philip ceased to be a Prince of Greece and Denmark on 18 March 1947 and became a Prince again on 22 February in 1957.
List of titles and honours of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And the following passage is also quite interesting IMO:
Quote:
Debate on Philip's titles

On the popular, but erroneous, assumption that if Philip had the style of His Royal Highness he was automatically a British prince, media reports after his marriage to Princess Elizabeth referred to a Prince Philip, with or without reference to his ducal title. This may have been influenced by the fact that he had actually been a Prince of Greece and Denmark by birth, the use of which titles he had renounced by that time. Although the princely title was omitted in the British Regency Act 1953, and in Letters Patent of November 1953 appointing Counsellors of State, it had been included in Letters Patent of 22 October 1948 conferring princely rank on children from Philip's marriage to Elizabeth. King George VI, however, appeared to have been clear and intentional in having withheld the title of prince from his future son-in-law.[N 1]

On 3 February 1953, Member of Parliament John Diefenbaker expressed to the Canadian House of Commons his desire to see Philip bear a title that alluded to the Queen's pan-national position and put forward the suggestion of Prince of the Commonwealth.[2] In May of the following year, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Sir Winston Churchill received a written suggestion from the Queen that her husband be granted the title that Diefenbaker had mentioned, or some other suitable augmentation of his style. Churchill preferred the title Prince Consort, but the Foreign Secretary, Sir Anthony Eden, expressed a preference for Prince of the Realm. While the Commonwealth prime ministers were assembled in London, Churchill was requested by the Queen to informally solicit their opinions on the matter of the Queen's husband's title. Canadian Prime Minister Louis St. Laurent was the only one to express "misgivings," while Philip insisted to the Queen that he objected to any enhancement of his title. The Queen thereafter contacted Churchill and told him to drop the matter.[1]

In 1955, the South African prime minister belatedly made it known that the South African Cabinet objected to the title Prince of the Commonwealth. When told, the Queen continued to express the wish that her husband's position be raised, but rejected the British Cabinet's recommendations of Prince Consort or Prince Royal. The British Cabinet then suggested simply His Royal Highness the Prince, but the Queen was advised that if she still preferred Prince of the Commonwealth, her personal secretary could write directly to the Commonwealth governors-general for their response, though warning that if their consent was not unanimous the proposal could not go forward.

The matter appeared left until the publication on 8 February 1957 of an article by P. Wykeham-Bourne in the Evening Standard titled: "Well, is it correct to say Prince Philip?" A few days following, British Prime Minister Harold Macmillan reversed the advice of the Queen's previous ministers and formally recommended that the Queen reject The Prince in favour of Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and Her other Realms and Territories. Later he changed this advice, although the Queen had already consented. Letters patent were issued on 22 February 1957 giving the Duke the style and titular dignity of a Prince of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (omitting the wording and Her other Realms and Territories). According to the announcement in the London Gazette, he should henceforth be known as His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh,[3] with the capitalised definite article normally restricted to the children of monarchs.[1]
Yes I know that Wikipedia is not always reliable but here it seems pretty well informed and several other members posted Wikipedia as their source too. But as I said I am really dying to hear the Danish side.
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